GeneralCartmanLee 313 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 My opinion is Murray was happy to get rid of the song, just my opinion. You’re probably right, he didn’t attempt to defend the song but did defend the club…… Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Manticore* 1,893 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Please let the season start early. I want to talk about football again Jog on Declan. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cumbria_blue 51 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Respecting the Protestant and Orange traditions of Rangers has nothing to do with living in the past, as some would have you believe. I for one am an atheist, but I do know about the traditions of the club and those that support it and I respect it. If people want to link Rangers to Orangeism or Protestantism then let them do it, I won't think any worse about them. In fact, I am proud that people do this. Like I said, I do not believe in any God but when someone says to me 'Rangers is a club with proud Protestant heritage' then that doesn't mean that it's a religious club through and through but that they (used to) uphold honor, dignity and class. I agree entirely with this post I am an athiest but come form a Ulster/Scots protestant background so I understand why this heritage is equated with our club. I love singing the sash, Billy Boys (back in the day) and Derry's Walls at Ibrox as that is my heritage and I think it has helped to make our club unique. But I have to admit the only things I would worry about is when people use orangeism and loyalism to just get it up the catholics. We can be proud of our traditions without insulting everybody elses. Incidently I have met muslim and Catholic supporters of our club before and none of them had a problem with our protestant/unionist identity even if they weren't really part of it, and I have no problem with them supporting our great club. They went to Ibrox, not to sing loyalist songs, just to support the gers which is fine with me. I'd sooner have 50,000 fans of all denominations and traditions at Ibrox than just a few thousand traditionalists. We all have our place at Ibrox imo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
minstral 5,375 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Respecting the Protestant and Orange traditions of Rangers has nothing to do with living in the past, as some would have you believe. I for one am an atheist, but I do know about the traditions of the club and those that support it and I respect it. If people want to link Rangers to Orangeism or Protestantism then let them do it, I won't think any worse about them. In fact, I am proud that people do this. Like I said, I do not believe in any God but when someone says to me 'Rangers is a club with proud Protestant heritage' then that doesn't mean that it's a religious club through and through but that they (used to) uphold honor, dignity and class. I agree entirely with this post I am an athiest but come form a Ulster/Scots protestant background so I understand why this heritage is equated with our club. I love singing the sash, Billy Boys (back in the day) and Derry's Walls at Ibrox as that is my heritage and I think it has helped to make our club unique. But I have to admit the only things I would worry about is when people use orangeism and loyalism to just get it up the catholics. We can be proud of our traditions without insulting everybody elses. Incidently I have met muslim and Catholic supporters of our club before and none of them had a problem with our protestant/unionist identity even if they weren't really part of it, and I have no problem with them supporting our great club. They went to Ibrox, not to sing loyalist songs, just to support the gers which is fine with me. I'd sooner have 50,000 fans of all denominations and traditions at Ibrox than just a few thousand traditionalists. We all have our place at Ibrox imo. I agree with a lot of your post, but the traditionalists shoud never be forgotten, because in my opinion our club would never have come so big without them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamzie73 0 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 I would love to bring back the days when the billy boys and the sash were belted out at ibrox.. But things have 'changed' I reckon we should continue to sing OUR songs minus the 'offensive' bits like FTP etc. because apart from those offensive words I dont see what the problem is? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cumbria_blue 51 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Respecting the Protestant and Orange traditions of Rangers has nothing to do with living in the past, as some would have you believe. I for one am an atheist, but I do know about the traditions of the club and those that support it and I respect it. If people want to link Rangers to Orangeism or Protestantism then let them do it, I won't think any worse about them. In fact, I am proud that people do this. Like I said, I do not believe in any God but when someone says to me 'Rangers is a club with proud Protestant heritage' then that doesn't mean that it's a religious club through and through but that they (used to) uphold honor, dignity and class. I agree entirely with this post I am an athiest but come form a Ulster/Scots protestant background so I understand why this heritage is equated with our club. I love singing the sash, Billy Boys (back in the day) and Derry's Walls at Ibrox as that is my heritage and I think it has helped to make our club unique. But I have to admit the only things I would worry about is when people use orangeism and loyalism to just get it up the catholics. We can be proud of our traditions without insulting everybody elses. Incidently I have met muslim and Catholic supporters of our club before and none of them had a problem with our protestant/unionist identity even if they weren't really part of it, and I have no problem with them supporting our great club. They went to Ibrox, not to sing loyalist songs, just to support the gers which is fine with me. I'd sooner have 50,000 fans of all denominations and traditions at Ibrox than just a few thousand traditionalists. We all have our place at Ibrox imo. I agree with a lot of your post, but the traditionalists shoud never be forgotten, because in my opinion our club would never have come so big without them. I know Minstral, I never said that the traditionalist should be forgotten, I just think we have to accept that we have a lot of fans now who aren't from a protestant/orange background. You're right in that our club wouldn't be as big as we are now without the orange heritage, it has defined us as a club and is still important to many of us including myself, but we can't exclude everyone else from being a fan. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis 1,011 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 I would love to bring back the days when the billy boys and the sash were belted out at ibrox.. But things have 'changed' I reckon we should continue to sing OUR songs minus the 'offensive' bits like FTP etc. because apart from those offensive words I dont see what the problem is? the billy boys and the sash are OUR songs, they have been sung at Ibrox and all over the world for many decades. I also dont find FTP 'offensive'. it should be my right in a democratic country to shout it as loud as i want. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle 3 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 I would love to bring back the days when the billy boys and the sash were belted out at ibrox.. But things have 'changed' I reckon we should continue to sing OUR songs minus the 'offensive' bits like FTP etc. because apart from those offensive words I dont see what the problem is? people should be allowed to sings these songs, what ever hapened to freedom of speech, but i am strongly against them they have nothing to do with the club , i hate the pope but i also hate gangsters thugs etc. namely billy fullerton its 2009 we should move on the sash and billy boys are protestant songs imo not rangers songs the two are not the same Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle 3 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 I would love to bring back the days when the billy boys and the sash were belted out at ibrox.. But things have 'changed' I reckon we should continue to sing OUR songs minus the 'offensive' bits like FTP etc. because apart from those offensive words I dont see what the problem is? the billy boys and the sash are OUR songs, they have been sung at Ibrox and all over the world for many decades. I also dont find FTP 'offensive'. it should be my right in a democratic country to shout it as loud as i want. unfortuneatley none exist Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bouncy 315 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 My opinion is Murray was happy to get rid of the song, just my opinion. You’re probably right, he didn’t attempt to defend the song but did defend the club…… by banning a traditional Rangers song from Ibrox? Murray hasnt defended Rangers at all throughout this crusade againts us. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zappa 358 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 The creation of or instigation of hostile divisions between our fans by any particular group of the support is almost unforgivable imo, but I find myself constantly having to forgive a section or sections of our support for actively seeking to divide the fans over the fact that we don't all hold the same beliefs and values or live our lives with carbon copy mindsets. The very idea that any RFC supporters group would publicly say (whether directly or otherwise) that they'd rather have a small crowd of like minded Orangemen at Ibrox who all held the same beliefs & values than have Ibrox filled with Rangers fans from all walks of life, isn't actually very surprising at all and definitely highlights the fact that bigotry is still going strong in our society. It can't be argued when sections/groups of our own support are displaying their distaste & even hatred towards other Bears instead of those outside our club who seek to see it crumbling. The song bans are a disgrace & a farce. They make a mockery of our club, of Scottish Football & even make a mockery of the political & legal systems in Scotland. There has to be something we can do about it, something more worthwhile than whining, arguing, pointing fingers and name-calling one another? The cause of the squabbling is that some of us feel strongly about wanting to continue singing the banned songs, while some of us are against singing them primarily because of the risk of the club being fined, docked points or any of the possible punishments. Both are totally fair points, but where we're losing the plot completely is when the argument goes further and deeper as it has throughout this thread. If there really are any of the unwashed around here, they'll be pissing themselves laughing at the divisions being created amongst our support because of these songs being banned. Can we not all just respect one another enough to actively do something about the problem other than bickering about it? Can we do something about the problem in an organized, systematic & private manner that's undetectable on timmy's radar? Please? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterC 12,760 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 I often hear people say that the Unionist and Protestant aspect of supporting Rangers is one on the decline. That may well be true however, there is absolutely no doubt that songs such as Derry's Walls in particular remain chants that are sung the loudest at any Rangers match I attend. As such it is really difficult (perhaps impossible) to claim that our club will ever lose such virtues. Moreover, while religion - or rather the expression of religion via attendance at church - is on the decline that is no reason for people to suggest its part on our club over the last 100 years or so should be removed (or disrespected). Nevertheless, one of the proudest things for me as a Rangers supporter nowadays is our club's inclusive nature. Scores of nationalities have served our club since its inception and almost every creed and religion as well. That is reflected when you look around Ibrox nowadays - asians, blacks, whites, christians, muslims, aethists; all worship at the alter of RFC as one set of fans. For me, that is what we should be concentrating on whenever people hostile to our club attempt to discredit us. exactly, the Rangers support is a broad church and I may not be the biggest prod out there or much of a unionist but the clubs tradition and heritage is massively important but to me all of that pales into insignificance when it comes to matters on the park Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WVB 2,560 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 GCL, i am retracting the timmy accusation & apologising for making it. We may not see eye to eye on SDM but i am big & ugly enough to see when i am mistaken. Whether you accept the apology in the manner it was given is entirely up to you. Quite frankly though, I expect to be banned from Ibrox at some point this season, for singing TBB or shouting FTP. I havent been back since TBB was banned & i have no wish to sit amongst people who will swallow all the shite we've had flung at us. I'm pig sick at how Murray has ruined the club i love and if i wasn't an atheist i'd be on my fucking knees every night praying for a new chairman who has Rangers running through his veins ,and not a rugger-bugger businessman whose 1st choice was Ayr United and not The Rangers. Religion is actually becoming a reality now, i'm going to pray for SDM to GTF. Why cant i find any details of the accident where he lost his legs btw? I've trawled through the net a few times but to no avail. No hiddden agenda here, i'm just curious to find out if he's had it covered up for any reason. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WVB 2,560 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Can we do something about the problem in an organized, systematic & private manner that's undetectable on timmy's radar? Please? What he said. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamteuchter 1 Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 The creation of or instigation of hostile divisions between our fans by any particular group of the support is almost unforgivable imo, but I find myself constantly having to forgive a section or sections of our support for actively seeking to divide the fans over the fact that we don't all hold the same beliefs and values or live our lives with carbon copy mindsets. The very idea that any RFC supporters group would publicly say (whether directly or otherwise) that they'd rather have a small crowd of like minded Orangemen at Ibrox who all held the same beliefs & values than have Ibrox filled with Rangers fans from all walks of life, isn't actually very surprising at all and definitely highlights the fact that bigotry is still going strong in our society. It can't be argued when sections/groups of our own support are displaying their distaste & even hatred towards other Bears instead of those outside our club who seek to see it crumbling. The song bans are a disgrace & a farce. They make a mockery of our club, of Scottish Football & even make a mockery of the political & legal systems in Scotland. There has to be something we can do about it, something more worthwhile than whining, arguing, pointing fingers and name-calling one another? The cause of the squabbling is that some of us feel strongly about wanting to continue singing the banned songs, while some of us are against singing them primarily because of the risk of the club being fined, docked points or any of the possible punishments. Both are totally fair points, but where we're losing the plot completely is when the argument goes further and deeper as it has throughout this thread. If there really are any of the unwashed around here, they'll be pissing themselves laughing at the divisions being created amongst our support because of these songs being banned. Can we not all just respect one another enough to actively do something about the problem other than bickering about it? Can we do something about the problem in an organized, systematic & private manner that's undetectable on timmy's radar? Please? Well said. He is completely correct. Maybe we should all think be thinking of a way to keep the support together. My opinions differ from a lot of others on here buti, respect all opinions that are being thrown around. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUEDIGNITY 34,090 Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 The creation of or instigation of hostile divisions between our fans by any particular group of the support is almost unforgivable imo, but I find myself constantly having to forgive a section or sections of our support for actively seeking to divide the fans over the fact that we don't all hold the same beliefs and values or live our lives with carbon copy mindsets. The very idea that any RFC supporters group would publicly say (whether directly or otherwise) that they'd rather have a small crowd of like minded Orangemen at Ibrox who all held the same beliefs & values than have Ibrox filled with Rangers fans from all walks of life, isn't actually very surprising at all and definitely highlights the fact that bigotry is still going strong in our society. It can't be argued when sections/groups of our own support are displaying their distaste & even hatred towards other Bears instead of those outside our club who seek to see it crumbling. The song bans are a disgrace & a farce. They make a mockery of our club, of Scottish Football & even make a mockery of the political & legal systems in Scotland. There has to be something we can do about it, something more worthwhile than whining, arguing, pointing fingers and name-calling one another? The cause of the squabbling is that some of us feel strongly about wanting to continue singing the banned songs, while some of us are against singing them primarily because of the risk of the club being fined, docked points or any of the possible punishments. Both are totally fair points, but where we're losing the plot completely is when the argument goes further and deeper as it has throughout this thread. If there really are any of the unwashed around here, they'll be pissing themselves laughing at the divisions being created amongst our support because of these songs being banned. Can we not all just respect one another enough to actively do something about the problem other than bickering about it? Can we do something about the problem in an organized, systematic & private manner that's undetectable on timmy's radar? Please? Some fair points there but why are some posters obsessed at saying that Rangers are not linked with the C of S, The Masonic, The Orange Order when they undeniably are and always will be, I know people including myself don't attend The Kirk except for official engagements but religion won't go away ever, anybody thinks different are naive to the extreme so deal with it. I like the bit about undetectable on tims radar, if only Mate but I'm afraid not enough posters have had Masonic training for that and there's no way all posters can be vetted for their true sympathies ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie 505 Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 Why cant i find any details of the accident where he lost his legs btw? I've trawled through the net a few times but to no avail. No hiddden agenda here, i'm just curious to find out if he's had it covered up for any reason. Why would he have such a tragic event covered up? Perhaps the media are, for once, respectful of his privacy with regard to the accident and don't wish to discuss it all too often. Just like we don't read much about his first wife dying of cancer. For what its worth (and I really don't know how it is relevant to this debate) SDM (aged 25) lost his legs after crashing his car into a tree in 1976 on the way home from playing in a rugby match. Now Rangers fans may well differ in their opinions of the man; we're all entitled to that. However, if we should have respect for one aspect of SDM, its that of the tragic events in his life and how he has managed to move on from them. Let's leave the questions and mocking of those events to the small number of Celtic fans who take delight in such stuff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WVB 2,560 Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 Thanks for that Frankie, and i know it wasnt relevant to the debate but it wasn't something i wanted to start a thread about & just thought i'd get someone on this thread to shed some light on it for me. As for his first wife dying of cancer, i'm ashamed to say i'd totally forgotten about that. I still want him out and shall be praying again ths evening. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralCartmanLee 313 Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 GCL, i am retracting the timmy accusation & apologising for making it. We may not see eye to eye on SDM but i am big & ugly enough to see when i am mistaken. Whether you accept the apology in the manner it was given is entirely up to you. Quite frankly though, I expect to be banned from Ibrox at some point this season, for singing TBB or shouting FTP. I havent been back since TBB was banned & i have no wish to sit amongst people who will swallow all the shite we've had flung at us. I'm pig sick at how Murray has ruined the club i love and if i wasn't an atheist i'd be on my fucking knees every night praying for a new chairman who has Rangers running through his veins ,and not a rugger-bugger businessman whose 1st choice was Ayr United and not The Rangers. Religion is actually becoming a reality now, i'm going to pray for SDM to GTF. Why cant i find any details of the accident where he lost his legs btw? I've trawled through the net a few times but to no avail. No hiddden agenda here, i'm just curious to find out if he's had it covered up for any reason. Of course I accept your apology, not a problem…. We may disagree fundamentally on many issues i would have thought my love for Rangers shines through any disagreements I have on here (maybe not)….. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Manticore* 1,893 Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 The Gub? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brissybear 50 Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 The Gub? Blue Dignity = Gub Wannabee! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Manticore* 1,893 Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 Vaguely on topic here's a podcast from the BBC about the OO: http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/belief As for cartman we've known for some time that he's the ghost of token, not a tim (imo) just a, well, if I said it I'd likely be banned..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjorkland 13 Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 The creation of or instigation of hostile divisions between our fans by any particular group of the support is almost unforgivable imo, but I find myself constantly having to forgive a section or sections of our support for actively seeking to divide the fans over the fact that we don't all hold the same beliefs and values or live our lives with carbon copy mindsets. The very idea that any RFC supporters group would publicly say (whether directly or otherwise) that they'd rather have a small crowd of like minded Orangemen at Ibrox who all held the same beliefs & values than have Ibrox filled with Rangers fans from all walks of life, isn't actually very surprising at all and definitely highlights the fact that bigotry is still going strong in our society. It can't be argued when sections/groups of our own support are displaying their distaste & even hatred towards other Bears instead of those outside our club who seek to see it crumbling. The song bans are a disgrace & a farce. They make a mockery of our club, of Scottish Football & even make a mockery of the political & legal systems in Scotland. There has to be something we can do about it, something more worthwhile than whining, arguing, pointing fingers and name-calling one another? The cause of the squabbling is that some of us feel strongly about wanting to continue singing the banned songs, while some of us are against singing them primarily because of the risk of the club being fined, docked points or any of the possible punishments. Both are totally fair points, but where we're losing the plot completely is when the argument goes further and deeper as it has throughout this thread. If there really are any of the unwashed around here, they'll be pissing themselves laughing at the divisions being created amongst our support because of these songs being banned. Can we not all just respect one another enough to actively do something about the problem other than bickering about it? Can we do something about the problem in an organized, systematic & private manner that's undetectable on timmy's radar? Please? Some fair points there but why are some posters obsessed at saying that Rangers are not linked with the C of S, The Masonic, The Orange Order when they undeniably are and always will be, I know people including myself don't attend The Kirk except for official engagements but religion won't go away ever, anybody thinks different are naive to the extreme so deal with it. I like the bit about undetectable on tims radar, if only Mate but I'm afraid not enough posters have had Masonic training for that and there's no way all posters can be vetted for their true sympathies ! Of course there is a link between Rangers and C o S, etc. There is also a link between Germany and Nazism. Such a link however does not necessarily have to continue. Obviously there are some who want it to, but as with most things in life the majority will decide. And, sadly for your own PoV, it seems the majority of Rangers fan do not want their club to be directly link with the OO. We must always remember our heritage, but we must also learn from it. It is my personal opinion that Ibrox is a place to worship football and football only. Rangers fans may hold whatever beliefs the want, but they should be distinct and seperate from supporting Rangers. Sadly religion will probably never go away. It is a stiffling concept that has held mankind back, and is based upon assumptions and fallacies. But mankind has a need to attribute meaning, and a need to explain everything. Also, no disrespect to anyone, but if you don't follow the rules of a religion, I don't see how you can say you belong to it. If you don't believe you need to attend the Kirk to be protestant, then you don't believe what protestantism teaches. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Manticore* 1,893 Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 Perilously close to comparing the OO with Nazism. Maybe more carefully chosen words would be appropriate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
minstral 5,375 Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 The creation of or instigation of hostile divisions between our fans by any particular group of the support is almost unforgivable imo, but I find myself constantly having to forgive a section or sections of our support for actively seeking to divide the fans over the fact that we don't all hold the same beliefs and values or live our lives with carbon copy mindsets. The very idea that any RFC supporters group would publicly say (whether directly or otherwise) that they'd rather have a small crowd of like minded Orangemen at Ibrox who all held the same beliefs & values than have Ibrox filled with Rangers fans from all walks of life, isn't actually very surprising at all and definitely highlights the fact that bigotry is still going strong in our society. It can't be argued when sections/groups of our own support are displaying their distaste & even hatred towards other Bears instead of those outside our club who seek to see it crumbling. The song bans are a disgrace & a farce. They make a mockery of our club, of Scottish Football & even make a mockery of the political & legal systems in Scotland. There has to be something we can do about it, something more worthwhile than whining, arguing, pointing fingers and name-calling one another? The cause of the squabbling is that some of us feel strongly about wanting to continue singing the banned songs, while some of us are against singing them primarily because of the risk of the club being fined, docked points or any of the possible punishments. Both are totally fair points, but where we're losing the plot completely is when the argument goes further and deeper as it has throughout this thread. If there really are any of the unwashed around here, they'll be pissing themselves laughing at the divisions being created amongst our support because of these songs being banned. Can we not all just respect one another enough to actively do something about the problem other than bickering about it? Can we do something about the problem in an organized, systematic & private manner that's undetectable on timmy's radar? Please? Some fair points there but why are some posters obsessed at saying that Rangers are not linked with the C of S, The Masonic, The Orange Order when they undeniably are and always will be, I know people including myself don't attend The Kirk except for official engagements but religion won't go away ever, anybody thinks different are naive to the extreme so deal with it. I like the bit about undetectable on tims radar, if only Mate but I'm afraid not enough posters have had Masonic training for that and there's no way all posters can be vetted for their true sympathies ! Of course there is a link between Rangers and C o S, etc. There is also a link between Germany and Nazism. Such a link however does not necessarily have to continue. Obviously there are some who want it to, but as with most things in life the majority will decide. And, sadly for your own PoV, it seems the majority of Rangers fan do not want their club to be directly link with the OO. We must always remember our heritage, but we must also learn from it. It is my personal opinion that Ibrox is a place to worship football and football only. Rangers fans may hold whatever beliefs the want, but they should be distinct and seperate from supporting Rangers. Sadly religion will probably never go away. It is a stiffling concept that has held mankind back, and is based upon assumptions and fallacies. But mankind has a need to attribute meaning, and a need to explain everything. Also, no disrespect to anyone, but if you don't follow the rules of a religion, I don't see how you can say you belong to it. If you don't believe you need to attend the Kirk to be protestant, then you don't believe what protestantism teaches. How do you know hat the majority of Rangers fans dont want linked to the OO, show me the proof. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts