Hillsborough Enquiry

[Devlin 222]

I have no problem with you disagreeing, acting like you don't know why is the snide part.

Acting like i don't know why what?

I know why you dont' support Rangers anymore and it's not an opinion i agree with.

I didn't know if there was a specific thread where this was revealed, i thought there was a big thread on it i had missed...

[caseyjones 3,009]

Acting like i don't know why what?

I know why you dont' support Rangers anymore and it's not an opinion i agree with.

I didn't know if there was a specific thread where this was revealed, i thought there was a big thread on it i had missed...

I'm not that important.

[simplythebest 11,453]

Acting like i don't know why what?

I know why you dont' support Rangers anymore and it's not an opinion i agree with.

I didn't know if there was a specific thread where this was revealed, i thought there was a big thread on it i had missed...

http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=235716&view=findpost&p=1060349827

[Devlin 222]

http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=235716&view=findpost&p=1060349827

Cheers i knew about that thread but thanks anyway

I don't understand it but at least he's sticking to what he said. I do remember a lot of strong opinions when it was Bill Millar's newco that seemed to vanish when it was Charles Greens newco.

[Ben10 2,294]

I'm not that important.

Attention-seeking is the most obvious choice.

[simplythebest 11,453]

Cheers i knew about that thread but thanks anyway

I don't understand it but at least he's sticking to what he said. I do remember a lot of strong opinions when it was Bill Millar's newco that seemed to vanish when it was Charles Greens newco.

Many of us were unaware of what 'newco' actually meant though and probably swallowing the timmy propaganda that it meant a brand new club. Apart from a company structure, the league and a some players leaving nothing is different, not the badge, colours, kit, honours, stadium, training ground, manager, backroom staff, season tickets, anything.

What I find most bizarre about casey is that if he really believes his club is dead why is he still on here reminding himself of it all the time? If I felt my club had died i'd probably still be in a grieving process.

[Devlin 222]

Many of us were unaware of what 'newco' actually meant though and probably swallowing the timmy propaganda that it meant a brand new club. Apart from a company structure, the league and a some players leaving nothing is different, not the badge, colours, kit, honours, stadium, training ground, manager, backroom staff, season tickets, anything.

What I find most bizarre about casey is that if he really believes his club is dead why is he still on here reminding himself of it all the time? If I felt my club had died i'd probably still be in a grieving process.

He just loves the OT's patter so much

[caseyjones 3,009]

Attention-seeking is the most obvious choice.

It wasn't me who brought it up, but carry on.

[Ben10 2,294]

He just loves the OT's patter so much

You'll end up hurting his foreskin

[Devlin 222]

You'll end up hurting his foreskin

Well then i'll just have to kiss it better.

[OLE SUPER WILBERT 2,475]

Well then i'll just have to kiss it better.

[caseyjones 3,009]

Well then i'll just have to kiss it better.

Owned!

[Albertz123 598]

Well then i'll just have to kiss it better.

Ahahah

[Jon-the-Stripe 2,459]

Haven't we gone slightly off topic here Bear's?

[Albertz123 598]

Haven't we gone slightly off topic here Bear's?

I think we have, thankfully.

[JCDBigBear 10,860]

I stopped reading there. The middle pen was, dangerously so. Fans should have been directed to the side pens which were not full but that didn't happen, they were allowed to go to the back of an already dangerously overcrowded middle pen. How anyone can be coldhearted enough too blame the fans is beyond me.

Read the report.

Read all of my post. I didn't blame all the Liverpool fans, certainly not the innocent ones crushed to death at the front. I said that the late-comers were partly culpable. I'm not denying other people/organisations culpability but there is a degree of blame on some Liverpool fans. Older fans like myself who have experienced the old crowded terracings and entrances will know exactly what I mean.

It's far too easy for everyone to look to the authorities on which to lay blame. Fans as individuals have a duty of care to themselves and others. They have to shoulder some responsibility for their own part in the tragedy.

[TravelingWilBEARy 4,319]

Read all of my post. I didn't blame all the Liverpool fans, certainly not the innocent ones crushed to death at the front. I said that the late-comers were partly culpable. I'm not denying other people/organisations culpability but there is a degree of blame on some Liverpool fans. Older fans like myself who have experienced the old crowded terracings and entrances will know exactly what I mean.

It's far too easy for everyone to look to the authorities on which to lay blame. Fans as individuals have a duty of care to themselves and others. They have to shoulder some responsibility for their own part in the tragedy.

You keep going on about late-comers. The gate was opened 8 minutes before kick off and fans piled through, the vast majority of whom were already there trying to get in. Inadequate turnstyles, non-existent stewarding and abysmal policing are too blame.

[Albertz123 598]

Being late doesn't even come into it, they were allowed to head straight to the turnstiles from bus stops, train stations and coach parks without proper policing. If they had done the same as the year before and checked tickets on the way to Leppings Lane then it could have been avoided. Too many simple mistakes lead to this tragedy.

[JCDBigBear 10,860]

You keep going on about late-comers. The gate was opened 8 minutes before kick off and fans piled through, the vast majority of whom were already there trying to get in. Inadequate turnstyles, non-existent stewarding and abysmal policing are too blame.

There were still 2 to 3 thousand fans outside with 8 mins to kick off. Fans know that they won't get in for the KO because you can't get that many people through turnstiles in such a short period of time. Assume 2500 fans with 8 mins to go, that is 312 per minute. Assume 8 turnstiles that is 39 per minute each. You would never get them all in the ground in 8 mins. When fans see there are still thousands waiting and only 10 mins to KO. they get impatient. I've seen it a thousand times. They were let through the gate due to crushing at the turnstiles. It doesn't matter what time it was before kick off at that point.

You have stated yourself that fans piled through. That is correct, rushing to get to the terracing then pushing in from the back in a large surge. Are you seriously saying that this wasn't at least part of the problem?

I've already stated that other factors were involved in the tragedy. I'm not denying that bad decisions were taken. The worst decision was to open the outer gates but that was made with the intention of trying to save lives outside.

[TravelingWilBEARy 4,319]

There were still 2 to 3 thousand fans outside with 8 mins to kick off. Fans know that they won't get in for the KO because you can't get that many people through turnstiles in such a short period of time. Assume 2500 fans with 8 mins to go, that is 312 per minute. Assume 8 turnstiles that is 39 per minute each. You would never get them all in the ground in 8 mins. When fans see there are still thousands waiting and only 10 mins to KO. they get impatient. I've seen it a thousand times. They were let through the gate due to crushing at the turnstiles. It doesn't matter what time it was before kick off at that point.

You have stated yourself that fans piled through. That is correct, rushing to get to the terracing then pushing in from the back in a large surge. Are you seriously saying that this wasn't at least part of the problem?

I've already stated that other factors were involved in the tragedy. I'm not denying that bad decisions were taken. The worst decision was to open the outer gates but that was made with the intention of trying to save lives outside.

If you want to lay some of the blame for the disaster on impatient fans pushing and shoving then you are one cold hearted fucker who seemingly lives in a World of black and white, good and evil, right and wrong with absolutely no middle ground. I fear there is no point in debating further, your mind is made up and so is mine.

[ClintonGrey 365]

The reason I and many others were prepared to accept this version of events was primarily because of the Heysel Disaster, when a teams supporters have previous on this kind of thing it's rather easy to blame them, even if they are innocent this time around. Boy who cried wolf and all that.

For those not in the know - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heysel_Stadium_disaster

I'm glad to see the truth on this case has been outed though and I really hope the Yorkshire police get whats coming to them.

[Non_Sucumbi 876]

Many of us were unaware of what 'newco' actually meant though and probably swallowing the timmy propaganda that it meant a brand new club.

Sadly that propaganda came not only from the thims and the taig media but from some within our own support. In particular the people who alleged they had sought legal advice and that Bill Millers plan was flawed and would not work.

Well Miller's documented plan seems awfully close to the road-map followed by Charles Green and so far, thankfully, the doomsday scenario has never materialized.

[ClintonGrey 365]

Sadly that propaganda came not only from the thims and the taig media but from some within our own support. In particular the people who alleged they had sought legal advice and that Bill Millers plan was flawed and would not work.

Well Miller's documented plan seems awfully close to the road-map followed by Charles Green and so far, thankfully, the doomsday scenario has never materialized.

Unfortunately many fans 'groups' and certain posters on this board coughgunslingercough had their own agendas.

It does show you what propaganda can do in an atmosphere of high emotion though.

[Moody Blue Legend 61,934]

Apologies for not reading through the full thread. My feelings on this have probably been echoed.

I sat and watched this tragedy when it happened, gobsmacked at the sight of the folk running around screaming for help as they watched their mates/fellow fans die or dying in front of them. The telly cameras were zooming into fans faces who were still packed in the terracing as they struggled for breath or by the look of some poor folk, too late.

I was too young to remember the Ibrox disaster but i could see the look on my dad's face that he knew the extent of what was happening. In the days, weeks and months that followed, most of the spotlight was directed at the fans. The Sun, as has been well documented placed the blame mostly if not solely on them.

Maggie Thatcher and her cronies listened to her 'Special Police Force' (they helped her fight against the miners) and that was it, job done, the fans were to blame, end of.

Well, i've got to say, well done to one and all who never gave up the cause, be it for a loved one, friend or just for common decency.

The enquiry is complete and the hiding is over, the truth is out and justice MUST now be done.

The Government have had their say, the apologies have been made, time now for payback.

Let the bastards who lead this or ordered any kind of cover up have their day in court, this should include high ranking MP's, police and media who have known from the day this tragedy happened, or soon after that they were part of one of the biggest stitch up jobs in recent history, your time has come, big time!! and i hope you fucking rot.

[JCDBigBear 10,860]

If you want to lay some of the blame for the disaster on impatient fans pushing and shoving then you are one cold hearted fucker who seemingly lives in a World of black and white, good and evil, right and wrong with absolutely no middle ground. I fear there is no point in debating further, your mind is made up and so is mine.

Cold hearted f****r ??? I'd smack you in the mouth if you dared call me that to my face. Your argument refuses to see logic and truth in my posts.