ForeverBlue_Since91 2,895 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Why the fuck would anyone mention the Ibrox disaster in a Hillsborough-disaster thread ? If you read my post u know fine well what i'm talking about. No need to be a smart arse is there.He said what is the point of this whole thing?What if the police covered up what happened at the Ibrox disaster and we had to wait as long as the Liverpool fans have had to wait for the truth. With the media and police blaming us and saying we stole from our own fans etc would anyone on here like that? That was the point i was trying to make.Would he be saying whats the point then? Don't believe some of the comments on this thread. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeverBlue_Since91 2,895 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 You didn't check the username, stoopid! Says the guy being a wank on this thread blaming the liverpool fans even though the truth has came out today. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCDBigBear 10,830 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 You seem to think that those scenes outside were totally out of the ordinary - they weren't. Whoever ordered that gate to be opened did so because he didn't have a clue what to do in the circumstances.Turning up late leads to an anxiety to get in before kick off, that leads to pushing and shoving, and when that is also fuelled by alcohol it can boil over very quickly. I've been in crushes like that on loads of occasions, as will anyone who actually went to games at that time and earlier.Totally agree with you. I've experienced the same scenario at numerous times and at numerous grounds back in those earlier years. The TW guy is stubbornly refusing to acknowledge that those Liverpool fans who were still outside close to kick off were clearly impatient. They are as culpable as anyone in this disaster. When fans have plenty time they walk in and filter across the terracing. This problem was caused by a surge of fans entering from above and behind. In hindsight, the police shouldn't have opened the gates outside but they did so to prevent a similar disastrous incident outside. That decision (unwittingly) moved the problem inside the ground and possibly exacerbated it. However, those Liverpool fans also had a responsibility to behave in a decent and reasonable manner by using common sense to find a suitable place on the terracing and not just push in at the back, which is what they did with such disastrous consequences. They have a degree of culpability in this. As I said previously, the only people entirely blameless were the victims. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwallowsHisOwnSpunk 7,815 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 why does there need to be someone to blame why do police officers need to be brought to trial it was a tragic accident which was caused by many different factors there isn't one party solely to blame things like this happen every now and again all that should happen is to find out why and to make sure in never happens again (which has been done) chasing and punishing people who inadvertently contributed to the cause of the disaster is just wrong it's not like anyone tried to kill all those people. The only thing that should be looked at is whoever decided to cover it up i'm sure the police officers who changed statements were pressured into doing so by superiors the individual officers shouldn't be punished but the people who were at the top should. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Jela 20,417 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 If you read my post u know fine well what i'm talking about. No need to be a smart arse is there.He said what is the point of this whole thing?What if the police covered up what happened at the Ibrox disaster and we had to wait as long as the Liverpool fans have had to wait for the truth. With the media and police blaming us and saying we stole from our own fans etc would anyone on here like that? That was the point i was trying to make.Would he be saying whats the point then? Don't believe some of the comments on this thread.I did read your post.Who the fuck is 'he' ? You didn't quote anybody when I replied to you. Why the fuck is it you're even mentioning the Ibrox disaster ? Our situation and there's is completely different, the only thing that they have in common is that they were both disasters. Who the fuck is 'he', your imaginary friend ?I don't believe some of the mind-numbing pish you come out with. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeverBlue_Since91 2,895 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I did read your post.Who the fuck is 'he' ? You didn't quote anybody when I replied to you. Why the fuck is it you're even mentioning the Ibrox disaster ? Our situation and there's is completely different, the only thing that they have in common is that they were both disasters. Who the fuck is 'he', your imaginary friend ?I don't believe some of the mind-numbing pish you come out with. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Hablo Inglés 32 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 The Ibrox disaster is completely different, you should not even mention them in the same sentence. It was a structural collapse of the stadium. The Hillsborough disaster was down to human error somewhere directly at the incident, each side tries to blame the other, and it will probably never be concluded who is correct. That is why I believe it should simply be laid to rest and instead of looking for blame or vengeance, we should simply remember the victims of such a tragedy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeverBlue_Since91 2,895 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 The Ibrox disaster is completely different, you should not even mention them in the same sentence. It was a structural collapse of the stadium. The Hillsborough disaster was down to human error somewhere directly at the incident, each side tries to blame the other, and it will probably never be concluded who is correct. That is why I believe it should simply be laid to rest and instead of looking for blame or vengeance, we should simply remember the victims of such a tragedy.Well you shouldn't say things like whats the point of it all ffs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Hablo Inglés 32 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Well you shouldn't say things like whats the point of it all ffs.It was a genuine query, not just mocking. I wanted to know what was hoped to be achieved by this. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCDBigBear 10,830 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 The Ibrox disaster is completely different, you should not even mention them in the same sentence. It was a structural collapse of the stadium. The Hillsborough disaster was down to human error somewhere directly at the incident, each side tries to blame the other, and it will probably never be concluded who is correct. That is why I believe it should simply be laid to rest and instead of looking for blame or vengeance, we should simply remember the victims of such a tragedy.The Ibrox Disaster was not caused by "structural collapse". It was caused when people stumbled and fell and others then followed with a subsequent crush from the force of the crowd still coming down the stairway. In that respect, the two disasters weren't too dissimilar. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Jela 20,417 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 The Ibrox disaster is completely different, you should not even mention them in the same sentence. It was a structural collapse of the stadium. The Hillsborough disaster was down to human error somewhere directly at the incident, each side tries to blame the other, and it will probably never be concluded who is correct. That is why I believe it should simply be laid to rest and instead of looking for blame or vengeance, we should simply remember the victims of such a tragedy.Honestly, how daft can that boy possibly be ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeverBlue_Since91 2,895 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 It was a genuine query, not just mocking. I wanted to know what was hoped to be achieved by this.Closure to the family's for a start. they have been waiting 23 year for this so it has achieved something for them. And has proved that the police covered this up for 23 years. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeverBlue_Since91 2,895 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Honestly, how daft can that boy possibly be ?Not really i know they are different. But, he said whats the point of it all. I was just trying to say what if this had happened to us we would feel exactly the same way as the Liverpool fans do. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingWilBEARy 4,319 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 What exactly was ill-informed about my post? There is evidence that many Liverpool fans turned up late in actual fact, otherwise they would have been inside the ground without incident. The reason the police opened the outer gates was due to the numbers still outside who were causing concern for crushing at the turnstiles. How is it irrelevant? Of course it is relevant because once inside they all hurried to the back of the terracing which caused crushing at the front. Whose fans were pushing in at the back of the terracing?What evidence? Show me.The gate was opened 8 minutes before kick off. The majority were already there trying in vain to get in because the turnstyles were inadequate to support a crowd of that size.People blaming latecomers are well wide of the mark. The outer gate was opened 8 minutes before kick off - why the fuck would lateness even come into it?? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
legalbeagle 3,734 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 This is something of a problem for me.Firstly, people do need to remember the atmosphere around football in England in the 1980's, the police may well be seen as guilty of treating fans as less than human, yet, there were many instances when fans in England acted in such a way that the police had little option but to take that attitude. Apart from the obvious situation with the barriers, the attitudes had a major impact on everything that led up to that day, before the disaster, and certainly during the critical 15 minutes when lives could have been saved. It is too easy to look at it through the eyes of the 21st century.Secondly, I agree completely that the families of those victims need closure, and deserve the truth to be finally laid bare, I hope that those who failed and caused people to die are held to account. Those families and victims have my utmost sympathy for what they have gone through, especially if they were let down by the authorities.Thirdly, I struggle with the hypocrisy of the 'professional scousers' who need to ask themselves more difficult questions. Where were they when the Italian families (and others) were asking for someone to stand up and take responsibility for Heysel? Where were they when the Liverpool chairman of that time was babbling about hearing southern accents in the stands? It took Liverpool 20 years to take any form of responsibility for Heysel, and they received the response they deserved from Juventus fans.For the avoidance of any doubt, the third point is NOT directed at victims, their families, etc, but more at the constantly offended Liverpudlian who appear on our TV screens. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingWilBEARy 4,319 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Totally agree with you. I've experienced the same scenario at numerous times and at numerous grounds back in those earlier years. The TW guy is stubbornly refusing to acknowledge that those Liverpool fans who were still outside close to kick off were clearly impatient. They are as culpable as anyone in this disaster. When fans have plenty time they walk in and filter across the terracing. This problem was caused by a surge of fans entering from above and behind. In hindsight, the police shouldn't have opened the gates outside but they did so to prevent a similar disastrous incident outside. That decision (unwittingly) moved the problem inside the ground and possibly exacerbated it. However, those Liverpool fans also had a responsibility to behave in a decent and reasonable manner by using common sense to find a suitable place on the terracing and not just push in at the back, which is what they did with such disastrous consequences. They have a degree of culpability in this. As I said previously, the only people entirely blameless were the victims.What planet are you on? Liverpool fans are culpable? They should have strolled about a dangerously overcrowded pen and found a suitable place? My God. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caseyjones 3,009 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 This is something of a problem for me.Firstly, people do need to remember the atmosphere around football in England in the 1980's, the police may well be seen as guilty of treating fans as less than human, yet, there were many instances when fans in England acted in such a way that the police had little option but to take that attitude. Apart from the obvious situation with the barriers, the attitudes had a major impact on everything that led up to that day, before the disaster, and certainly during the critical 15 minutes when lives could have been saved. It is too easy to look at it through the eyes of the 21st century.Secondly, I agree completely that the families of those victims need closure, and deserve the truth to be finally laid bare, I hope that those who failed and caused people to die are held to account. Those families and victims have my utmost sympathy for what they have gone through, especially if they were let down by the authorities.Thirdly, I struggle with the hypocrisy of the 'professional scousers' who need to ask themselves more difficult questions. Where were they when the Italian families (and others) were asking for someone to stand up and take responsibility for Heysel? Where were they when the Liverpool chairman of that time was babbling about hearing southern accents in the stands? It took Liverpool 20 years to take any form of responsibility for Heysel, and they received the response they deserved from Juventus fans.For the avoidance of any doubt, the third point is NOT directed at victims, their families, etc, but more at the constantly offended Liverpudlian who appear on our TV screens.Just fantastic. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlenH79 42 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 The large crowds outside the stadium was caused by broken turnstiles I believe, the gate was ordered open, and then the liverpool fans went into the main pens, but once they were in, there was no way out, as they couldn't go against the flow coming in, thus the pen (which was already close to capacity) overfilled and the crush happened. It was a police failure, they should have ensured that the fans were diverted to the smaller pens. As mentioned in the Taylor report on the incident, no blame was attributed to drunk, ticketless fans, this perception seems to have arisen from the police cover up, in which they blamed drunk fans. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplythebest 11,453 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 The Ibrox disaster is completely different, you should not even mention them in the same sentence. It was a structural collapse of the stadium. The Hillsborough disaster was down to human error somewhere directly at the incident, each side tries to blame the other, and it will probably never be concluded who is correct. That is why I believe it should simply be laid to rest and instead of looking for blame or vengeance, we should simply remember the victims of such a tragedy.Today concluded it beyond any proper doubt. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gers1690 194 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 The Truth: Some fans picked pockets of victimsSome fans urinated on the brave copsSome fans beat up PC giving kiss of life Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude 20,026 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Today concluded it beyond any proper doubt.What authority does a bishop have to conclude it beyond proper doubt? What experience has he at chairing an investigative committee? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the goal machine 7,806 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 What authority does a bishop have to conclude it beyond proper doubt? What experience has he at chairing an investigative committee?Do yourself a favour and read the report. http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/report/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplythebest 11,453 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 What authority does a bishop have to conclude it beyond proper doubt? What experience has he at chairing an investigative committee?The files make it clear ffs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsa 3,906 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Closure to the family's for a start. they have been waiting 23 year for this so it has achieved something for them. And has proved that the police covered this up for 23 years.Closure or someone to blame? Anyone who thinks this means closure is either very naive or has failed to recognise the poison and love of being the victim that is deep rooted in the scouse psychology.This is only the beginning. The clamour for some type of prosecution will now begin. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsa 3,906 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 What planet are you on? Liverpool fans are culpable? They should have strolled about a dangerously overcrowded pen and found a suitable place? My God.I know Liverpool fans responsible for people dying at football. That is just an insane thought isn't it? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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