TravelingWilBEARy 4,319 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Who is saying that the fans were the main protagonists in all of this?Fans did turn up late, that is a fact. There will be different reasons behind that.Liverpool fans, along with a few other teams, travel in great numbers to games and do go when they have no tickets. Why would this match have been any different?If you don't think football fans go to games with a bevvy in them, and that day would have been no different, I would think that you had never been to a game - but you have, so your being disingenuous with your remarks.I'm saying that there is no evidence linking ticketless, drunk and late fans to the crush that lead to the deaths. The famous gate, ordered by the match commander to be opened, was opened at 14.52....8 minutes before kick-off. That's what caused the crush inside the stadium, after thousands of fans rushed through and into the back of an already dangerously overcrowded pen.How would latecomers or alcohol be an issue then? You tell me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caseyjones 3,009 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I'm saying that there is no evidence linking ticketless, drunk and late fans to the crush that lead to the deaths. The famous gate, ordered by the match commander to be opened, was opened at 14.52....8 minutes before kick-off. That's what caused the crush inside the stadium, after thousands of fans rushed through and into the back of an already dangerously overcrowded pen.How would latecomers or alcohol be an issue then? You tell me.You seem to think that those scenes outside were totally out of the ordinary - they weren't. Whoever ordered that gate to be opened did so because he didn't have a clue what to do in the circumstances.Turning up late leads to an anxiety to get in before kick off, that leads to pushing and shoving, and when that is also fuelled by alcohol it can boil over very quickly. I've been in crushes like that on loads of occasions, as will anyone who actually went to games at that time and earlier. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devlin 222 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 You seem to think that those scenes outside were totally out of the ordinary - they weren't. Whoever ordered that gate to be opened did so because he didn't have a clue what to do in the circumstances.Turning up late leads to an anxiety to get in before kick off, that leads to pushing and shoving, and when that is also fuelled by alcohol it can boil over very quickly. I've been in crushes like that on loads of occasions, as will anyone who actually went to games at that time and earlier.Anyone ever pickpocket you? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caseyjones 3,009 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Anyone ever pickpocket you?Not that I'm aware of. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingWilBEARy 4,319 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 You seem to think that those scenes outside were totally out of the ordinary - they weren't. Whoever ordered that gate to be opened did so because he didn't have a clue what to do in the circumstances.Turning up late leads to an anxiety to get in before kick off, that leads to pushing and shoving, and when that is also fuelled by alcohol it can boil over very quickly. I've been in crushes like that on loads of occasions, as will anyone who actually went to games at that time and earlier.Where did I suggest that the scenes were out of the ordinary? I said in the thread the other day that it was a scene which was familiar to anyone who remembers terrace culture.Again, the gate was opened 8 minutes before kick off, how can anyone rushing into the ground 8 minutes before kick off be described as 'late'? Drunk, no-tickets and latecoming are completely irrelevant points which serve only to cloud the issue. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carsons Dog 9,878 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 That Rogan bloke, the fans spokesman. Said on 5 Live this afternoon the cover up was all down to the MasonsFucking unbelievable stuffHe can get fucked Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caseyjones 3,009 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Where did I suggest that the scenes were out of the ordinary? I said in the thread the other day that it was a scene which was familiar to anyone who remembers terrace culture.Again, the gate was opened 8 minutes before kick off, how can anyone rushing into the ground 8 minutes before kick off be described as 'late'? Drunk, no-tickets and latecoming are completely irrelevant points which serve only to cloud the issue.You were five years-old in 1989 - you don't remember terrace culture.If one person turns up with eight minutes to go it's not a problem. When thousands turn up with eight minutes to go at a modern stadium, it's not a problem. It's now a part of history that it was a problem that day at Leppings Lane. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeverBlue_Since91 2,895 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Serious question so please don't be offended. Why is this still an issue? It was 23 years ago and I think it is almost certain that the fans were partly to blame for it so what is the point of this? To try to place the blame on the police?I know mistakes were made by many but why not just accept that it was a horrible accident and let it rest?Are you you that thick? 96 people died it was not there fault it was the police's they were the ones that opened the gate and tried to blame Lievrpool fans for kicking it down. There was a programme on about this the other night it showed you the police guy that opened that he got told from higher up to open the gates. There was plenty of people telling the police that day that they had to do something and one of there responses was "shut your fucking mouth"And what about the people's family's who lost sons daughters,brothers fathers etc.. they still don't know how it happened or who's fault it was so i think they will disagree with you when you say "so what is the point of this"Imagine if someone said what you just said about the Ibrox disaster what would u say or feel about that?or would you not see the point of it? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingWilBEARy 4,319 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 You were five years-old in 1989 - you don't remember terrace culture.If one person turns up with eight minutes to go it's not a problem. When thousands turn up with eight minutes to go at a modern stadium, it's not a problem. It's now a part of history that it was a problem that day at Leppings Lane.We had terracing at Ibrox and other Scottish grounds up until 1994. I do remember the tail end of that. I was at the League Cup Final against Hibs in 93 in a packed terracing.They didn't all turn up with 8 minutes to go as CCTV clearly shows, the majority were already there looking for a way to get in. A gate was opened and the rest is history. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeverBlue_Since91 2,895 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 You would never think we went through something similar to this by reading some of the comments on here. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caseyjones 3,009 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 We had terracing at Ibrox and other Scottish grounds up until 1994. I do remember the tail end of that. I was at the League Cup Final against Hibs in 93 in a packed terracing.They didn't all turn up with 8 minutes to go as CCTV clearly shows, the majority were already there looking for a way to get in. A gate was opened and the rest is history.It wasn't a 'packed' terracing in 93/94, numbers were reduced due to - have a guess.I'm not arguing about there being a gate opened at ten to three so why are you bringing that up? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingWilBEARy 4,319 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 It wasn't a 'packed' terracing in 93/94, numbers were reduced due to - have a guess.I'm not arguing about there being a gate opened at ten to three so why are you bringing that up?Tickets. It seemed pretty packed to me as a 9/10 year old but then I have nothing to compare it to. I'm really not sure what you're arguing about, to be honest, other than for the sake of it. I'll leave you to it Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caseyjones 3,009 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 You would never think we went through something similar to this by reading some of the comments on here.That's right. People died in a terrible accident. People mourned their departed. People reflected on what happened over the years.That's where the similarities end. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caseyjones 3,009 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Tickets. It seemed pretty packed to me as a 9/10 year old but then I have nothing to compare it to. I'm really not sure what you're arguing about, to be honest, other than for the sake of it. I'll leave you to it Ha, from a man who only this morning was bemoaning the lack of debate on the site. Suits me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingWilBEARy 4,319 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Ha, from a man who only this morning was bemoaning the lack of debate on the site. Suits me.I bemoaned that debating was pointless. Too many contrary, small minded, pedantic trolls, you see. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplythebest 11,453 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I bemoaned that debating was pointless. Too many contrary, small minded, pedantic trolls, you see.And non-Rangers fans who just like to hang around a Rangers forum and 'debate'. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caseyjones 3,009 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I bemoaned that debating was pointless. Too many contrary, small minded, pedantic trolls, you see.Too many who don't just agree with a certain view, I see. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caseyjones 3,009 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 And non-Rangers fans who just like to hang around a Rangers forum and 'debate'.I've already told you that I'm willing to meet face to face. Just say when. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplythebest 11,453 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I've already told you that I'm willing to meet face to face. Just say when.At no point did I mention your name, conclusions... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caseyjones 3,009 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 At no point did I mention your name, conclusions...Whether you did or not, that doesn't change my post. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplythebest 11,453 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Whether you did or not, that doesn't change my post.I'd happily meet for a drink, not the type to hold grudges. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Jela 20,418 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 You would never think we went through something similar to this by reading some of the comments on here.Why the fuck would anyone mention the Ibrox disaster in a Hillsborough-disaster thread ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caseyjones 3,009 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Why the fuck would anyone mention the Ibrox disaster in a Hillsborough-disaster thread ? You didn't check the username, stoopid! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCDBigBear 10,830 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I find it absolutely amazing that their are still ignorant, ill-educated and narrow minded people who STILL believe, after everything that has came out today, that Liverpool fans were the main protagonists.There is no evidence that fans turning up late, ticketless and drunk had anything to do with the disaster, no doubt that they did but they are irrelevant points which serve only to cloud the issue. It was a lie that it was the catalyst for the disaster, fed to the press by a police force orchestrating a cover-up. The report is available to download online. I recommend you read it and stop spouting ill-informed nonsense.What exactly was ill-informed about my post? There is evidence that many Liverpool fans turned up late in actual fact, otherwise they would have been inside the ground without incident. The reason the police opened the outer gates was due to the numbers still outside who were causing concern for crushing at the turnstiles. How is it irrelevant? Of course it is relevant because once inside they all hurried to the back of the terracing which caused crushing at the front. Whose fans were pushing in at the back of the terracing? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLoyal 105 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I've been having a look through some of the documents that have been released, this one makes interesting reading:Statements regarding allegations that fans urinated on police officers and evidence from a farrier about cigarette burns inflicted on a police horsehttp://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/docs/HOM000003170001.pdfThe Police Officer statements seem to stress the 'alcohol' influence a little bit too much for me. Seems like they were sticking to the 'party line'. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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