Ricky_ 893 Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 Ah ok, so while I was initially talking in realistic, pragmatic terms (ie, racism is a more pernicious evil and dangerous tool of division in society than anti-ginger prejudice and you and I know it, but you're in a facetious mood and determined to ignore that) but you wanted to talk in facts and legalities, when I try to meet you on even ground, it's not "relevant"? Well, if it's going to be that kind of debate, I'll let somebody who likes hitting their head off brick walls take over from me, if they fancy it Where did i say i wanted to talk in fact & legalities? At no poitn did i limit the subject to any single aspect. My original example stands. Wether in the eyes of the law or simply the view of society, the argument of 'historical scars' doesn't wash with me. And thats what your arguement boils down to. The point as Casey put, a pampered Ferdinand brother who has lived a life of luxury and resides in a mansion in the evening after a hard day of playing a game for 90 minutes has no personal historical scars. They weren't slaves or driven to suicide attempts over skin colour. Their ancestors were, therefore, it's viewed by both society & the law (which ever you would prefer to discuss) as far more serious than directing abuse towards that hypothetical ginger kid, who DOES have those historical scars and made attempts to take his own life.In my opinion the waters have been muddied between racism & a personal insult. Somehow i doubt John Terry is chapping Abramovichs door requesting segregated changing areas. (But don't confuse this opinion as a defence of the scum bag, i have nothing but contempt for JT). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caseyjones 3,009 Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 You're not so good at the reading comprehension today, Casey. I expect better from you.You can attempt to split hairs all you like, but that is the basis of your argument. You've stated that anti-gingerism is of lesser importance because, based on history, there isn't the same danger of gingers being persecuted as there is of it happening to blacks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingWilBEARy 4,319 Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 What races were involved other than Caucasians?There were only a very small number of non-whites in Nazi Germany although, peculiarly, they were generally treated with indifference and often overlooked when it came to enforcing the race laws. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieD 19,011 Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 What races were involved other than Caucasians?The matter of whether sub-races are indeed races is not really relevant in a discussion of the holocaust, since the perpetrators themselves, rightly or wrongly, made the distinction. The perpetrators themselves spoke of the Aryan "race". You can argue that the Nazis and the Jews were both of the same race, (Caucasian) but the impetus behind the destruction of the Jews was nevertheless one of racial division, real or imagined. Even the term "caucasian" was coined by a man who excluded the Jews from the label. Likewise, the word "racism" is widely applied to discrimination against ethnic groups and is thus popularly accepted to apply to such discrimination. As far as discussion of the holocaust goes, it makes sense to admit at least a perceived racial or ethnic distinction between white germans and the Jews and Roma. Unless YOU want to start splitting hairs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieD 19,011 Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 You can attempt to split hairs all you like, but that is the basis of your argument.You've stated that anti-gingerism is of lesser importance because, based on history, there isn't the same danger of gingers being persecuted as there is of it happening to blacks.Not simply based on history, but on the present. There is not, to my knowledge (and I await the jokes to the contrary) a sizeable proportion of the human population who seriously consider gingers to be genetically, culturally and behaviourally inferior to non-gingers. Anti-ginger sentiment amounts, at most, to an unpleasant experience for individuals, and in the worst case scenarios, some people will end up being hurt or hurting themselves as a result of bullying, as Ricky mentioned. But the 21st century ginger is not a victim of profiling by the police. He is not told by legitimate political parties that he is not and can never really be British, regardless of being born here, because he's just not like us deep down. And, to be perfectly honest, it is the realm of school insults. If the 21st ginger adult would like to live without prejudice he need do little more than stop hanging around with children, or adults who behave like children. They need not fear discrimination from mature, intelligent, educated and powerful people. Insulting someone for the colour of their hair isn't taken as seriously as insulting someone for the colour of their skin because it simply isn't as serious. I'm reasonably sure that no society will ever discriminate broadly against people on such terms. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caseyjones 3,009 Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Not simply based on history, but on the present. There is not, to my knowledge (and I await the jokes to the contrary) a sizeable proportion of the human population who seriously consider gingers to be genetically, culturally and behaviourally inferior to non-gingers. Anti-ginger sentiment amounts, at most, to an unpleasant experience for individuals, and in the worst case scenarios, some people will end up being hurt or hurting themselves as a result of bullying, as Ricky mentioned. But the 21st century ginger is not a victim of profiling by the police. He is not told by legitimate political parties that he is not and can never really be British, regardless of being born here, because he's just not like us deep down. And, to be perfectly honest, it is the realm of school insults. If the 21st ginger adult would like to live without prejudice he need do little more than stop hanging around with children, or adults who behave like children. They need not fear discrimination from mature, intelligent, educated and powerful people. Insulting someone for the colour of their hair isn't taken as seriously as insulting someone for the colour of their skin because it simply isn't as serious. I'm reasonably sure that no society will ever discriminate broadly against people on such terms.It has already been mentioned in this or the Jason Roberts thread that racism in football would stop overnight if it was made all white. Glad that you are in agreement with that principle.I still find it comical that you are prepared to discriminate about who should have to put up with discrimination basing it on a need for pragmatism and the threat of wider problems. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest **Panther Chic** Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 I'm not going to waste my precious time getting into a debate with the three retards who addressed my "racism runs deeper than skin colour comment"... I have better things to be doing with my time. Esp since none of you bothered talking about it properly. Jamie D is smart, he can explain it to the three of you. Have fun lads and Jamie D x Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky_ 893 Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 I'm not going to waste my precious time getting into a debate with the three retards who addressed my "racism runs deeper than skin colour comment"... ah, a derogatory comment about those born with mental disability, just when this thread was needing some irony. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky_ 893 Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 I still find it comical that you are prepared to discriminate about who should have to put up with discrimination basing it on a need for pragmatism and the threat of wider problems.but to jamie D's knowledge, nobody is REALLY bullied over being ginger. Just avoid hanging out with children, and it couldn't ever happen in the word place. Perhaps a better example would be calling someone from an under privelaged background a tramp. I got into a fight once for calling someone that, turns it that insult can cut just as deep as any racist comment depending on a persons background. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caseyjones 3,009 Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 I'm not going to waste my precious time getting into a debate with the three retards who addressed my "racism runs deeper than skin colour comment"... I have better things to be doing with my time. Esp since none of you bothered talking about it properly. Jamie D is smart, he can explain it to the three of you. Have fun lads and Jamie D x Priceless. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingWilBEARy 4,319 Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 I'm not going to waste my precious time getting into a debate with the three retards who addressed my "racism runs deeper than skin colour comment"... I have better things to be doing with my time. Esp since none of you bothered talking about it properly. Jamie D is smart, he can explain it to the three of you. Have fun lads and Jamie D x This is comedy genius. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieD 19,011 Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 It has already been mentioned in this or the Jason Roberts thread that racism in football would stop overnight if it was made all white. Glad that you are in agreement with that principle.I still find it comical that you are prepared to discriminate about who should have to put up with discrimination basing it on a need for pragmatism and the threat of wider problems.Erm, I don't think anybody should have to put up with discrimination. Neither gingers nor blacks. I don't recall saying that I did. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caseyjones 3,009 Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Erm, I don't think anybody should have to put up with discrimination. Neither gingers nor blacks. I don't recall saying that I did.You didn't, but you have intimated that you will accept it happening as it will only affect a few individuals, although, why the poor gingers don't get to be part of a group like the gay, black or Irish in society is a mystery. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieD 19,011 Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 You didn't, but you have intimated that you will accept it happening as it will only affect a few individuals, although, why the poor gingers don't get to be part of a group like the gay, black or Irish in society is a mystery.I can personally do no more about it than I can stop racism, but I assure you I hope for the black, the ginger and the big-nosed man to spend their lives in peace. I simply believe that racism poses a bigger problem for society than certain other forms of discrimination. There are several people in this thread attempting to downplay discrimination, I was not one of them. One can oppose discrimination in its many forms and still recognise that one or more forms are a more pressing issue than others. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caseyjones 3,009 Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 I can personally do no more about it than I can stop racism, but I assure you I hope for the black, the ginger and the big-nosed man to spend their lives in peace. I simply believe that racism poses a bigger problem for society than certain other forms of discrimination. There are several people in this thread attempting to downplay discrimination, I was not one of them. One can oppose discrimination in its many forms and still recognise that one or more forms are a more pressing issue than others.I am one of those who downplays discrimination, but that's across the board, not being hypocritical because of personal circumstances.It might not be nice, it might not be fair, but everyone should just get on with their day to day existence and stop looking for someone to blame for every one of life's ills. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devlin 222 Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Forgan Mreeman shags his granny or sout. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky_ 893 Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 I am one of those who downplays discrimination, but that's across the board, not being hypocritical because of personal circumstances.It might not be nice, it might not be fair, but everyone should just get on with their day to day existence and stop looking for someone to blame for every one of life's ills.how does that old adage go... the one about sticks and stones?Ironically, i don't think it would even be illegal for John Terry to request his employers implement segregated changing areas for black players. That would make him 100x more racist than a heat of the moment slur ever could . Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieD 19,011 Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 I am one of those who downplays discrimination, but that's across the board, not being hypocritical because of personal circumstances.It might not be nice, it might not be fair, but everyone should just get on with their day to day existence and stop looking for someone to blame for every one of life's ills.Well, quite. And once racists, ginger-haters and mockers of the big-nosed stop blaming those minorities for their life's ills, I suppose nobody will need to get upset about anything. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WadeWilson 4,670 Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 There is real talk of a 'Black players Association' being formed. I am not sure that fragmentation and therefore segregation is the way to go.I think this is a bad idea myself... and it will play into the hands of those who think there should be a 'White players Association' formed to 'redress the balance.'And then we really are opening a can of worms and I believe we would be going backwards instead of forwards.It is my understanding that a black association would be prepared to implement more 'radical' steps for change. This would probably amount to instructing their members to walk off the pitch at any sign of racism. Which has happened before anyway, in Russia, Ukraine and Turkey I think... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
papaguy51 912 Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Anyone who compares genuine racism to ginger jokes or fat jokes has, quite frankly, been brought up uneducated. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCDBigBear 10,830 Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 John Terry can hardly be deemed a typical racist. Look at his team mates Cole, Alex, Drogba, etc., they are all on his side. I don't know exactly the context of his words to Anton Ferdinand but he was charged not with calling him a F***** C**t but because he called him a F**** Black C**t. In the heat of the moment insults fly and three words always make more impact. You fkn B****D doesn't have the same resonance as You Effing (ginger, black, fat, white, speccy, skinny, ugly,, etc) B******d. It isn't because they are ginger, black, fat, white, speccy, skinny, ugly,, etc, it is simply because you think they are a fkn b*****d. In many contexts the use of the adjective is not aimed at specific types but in fact one individual. Jorg Albertz is ginger haired. TLB is ginger haired but as everyone knows, only one of them is an ugly ginger cretin. I'm also of the belief that racism in football in the UK has all but died out, certainly compared with 20 and more years ago. All this pre-game handshake stuff, t-shirt wearing, etc has no place in football. I don't mind some of the anti-racism ideas but some of it is now OTT. It is my opinion that a few black players are being serially offended. I doubt they are receiving abuse from the terraces because they are black, more likely because they are either crap or play for the opposition. As for the idea of Black Players Union, how is that going to help? That is more likely to be divisive. I hate the MOBO awards and the Assoc of Black Police Officers for being segregational. Can you imagine the outcry if we started a white only club or a protestant only union? Some people just can't see the hypocrisy. There have been a few incidents on TV where some players have allegedly been racially abused in games abroad. Next thing these players are in tears. What is that about? These are players who come from tough backgrounds and who would punch you if you said anything to them in a night club but on a football park they are in tears. I'm not defending racism, however it is high time we got some things into perspective. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caseyjones 3,009 Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Anyone who compares genuine racism to ginger jokes or fat jokes has, quite frankly, been brought up uneducated.What would you describe as 'genuine' racism? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky_ 893 Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 Anyone who compares genuine racism to ginger jokes or fat jokes has, quite frankly, been brought up uneducated.it was a heat of the moment insult on ones appearance we're talking about. that's not racism, it's a discriminatory remark that cuts just as deep as the ginger kid who is bullied at school. Genuine racism would be JT requesting segrated changing areas, or a transfer request on the basis the club employees too many blacks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingWilBEARy 4,319 Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 it was a heat of the moment insult on ones appearance we're talking about. that's not racism, it's a discriminatory remark that cuts just as deep as the ginger kid who is bullied at school. Genuine racism would be JT requesting segrated changing areas, or a transfer request on the basis the club employees too many blacks.Diet Racism?Low-Fat Racism?I Can't Believe It's Not Racism? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Manticore* 1,893 Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Race runs deeper and really has nothing to do with colour of skin either, it comes down to cultural background, nationalism etc.How exactly do you define 'race'? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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