Jim Murphy MP, Old Firm history & sectarianism

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

I think independence would be a step towards a catholic monarch in Scotland.

:lol: class piece ....

... Of absolute shite!

[lancedeangers1 287]

Another very interesting read from yourself Oleg. Cheers.

[Jetson 16]

:lol: class piece ....

... Of absolute shite!

Not a fan of the words of Pastor Martin Niemoller or EdmundBurke Bluepeter9 ?

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

Not a fan of the words of Pastor Martin Niemoller or EdmundBurke Bluepeter9 ?

Well one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter - and while I think I am a good man, am I? ( oh and I am never silent) Besides No one come after us atheists so I'll survive!

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

One big bit of information from his chapter on the Old Firm that I somehow forgot to include, due to my focus on the more important issues discussed above, is this part.

"For in the 1980s I was one of Rangers lower profile Catholic signings and, at the age of just twenty-two, I was in my footballing prime. However, the only silverware I ever got my hands on was the oversized fork and serving spoon while working as a silver service corporate hospitality waiter in the Thornton Suite in Rangers' Ibrox Stadium,"

I should have prefaced this post with.....

INCOMING!!!

Can anyone remember and confirm this?

[simplythebest 11,453]

I think I'm gonny vomit

Murphy is one of the Opus Mafia who sense that power over the British monarchy is within their grasp

An independent Scotland will hamper their ambitions on that front so of course he will be against it

His rant about Orange parades exposed him for the bigot he is

They are after the crown, don't be fooled by them

He's fighting hard for the union and I think we have to respect that regardless of what the motives might be

[siddiqi_drinker 14,635]

One big bit of information from his chapter on the Old Firm that I somehow forgot to include, due to my focus on the more important issues discussed above, is this part.

I should have prefaced this post with.....

INCOMING!!!

Can anyone remember and confirm this?

Oleg any ideas as to who the quoted 22 year old was???

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

Oleg any ideas as to who the quoted 22 year old was???

Jim Murphy himself, according to his book.

If he was born in 1967, as his wiki page suggests, then that puts it about the same time as Maurice Johnston signing in 1989.

[Adoniram 1,919]

Just a pity that Jim Murphy, at an Old Firm game, ran from his seat down many stairs to berate the "Orange Bastard" of a ref.

It was witnessed by many at the time who were in and around the Directors box at the Stade Du Gadd.

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

Just a pity that Jim Murphy, at an Old Firm game, ran from his seat down many stairs to berate the "Orange Bastard" of a ref.

It was witnessed by many at the time who were in and around the Directors box at the Stade Du Gadd.

Interesting. Are you certain that he actually used those words?

Also, I felt I had an almost encyclopaedic knowledge of our signings during the Souness era. I remember the lesser known names such as Dave McKellar, Lindsay Hamilton, Davie Kirkwood, Jimmy Phillips, Colin West and Chris Vinnicombe, but Jim Murphy is not familiar to me and at the age of 22, he wouldn't be an unknown youth player.

[Guest]

Agree totally.Tommy Burns never displayed any nastiness to our club and when you compare him to Lennon you see how far selltic have fallen in pandering to the 'bigots' at the club.Tommy Burns would not have tolerated it.Maybe mutual grudging respect died with Mr Burns.He was certainly a good man.

When Tommy Burns died I put a RIP message on my FB/Bebo page, he was a good man who was loved by many in Scottish football and deserved respect, when Lennon dies ill probably have a chuckle and then not think about it again, Lennon is a scum bag and a bigot who deserves no respect.

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

When Tommy Burns died I put a RIP message on my FB/Bebo page, he was a good man who was loved by many in Scottish football and deserved respect, when Lennon dies ill probably have a chuckle and then not think about it again, Lennon is a scum bag and a bigot who deserves no respect.

I remember that Walter Smith and Ally McCoist actually served as pallbearers at his funeral.

At the same time the media were vilifying us over Manchester, which was unfair and sensationalist given the context and the facts.

[Jetson 16]

I remember that Walter Smith and Ally McCoist actually served as pallbearers at his funeral.

At the same time the media were vilifying us over Manchester, which was unfair and sensationalist given the context and the facts.

When did the Taig Mhedia ever deal in facts Oleg?

[mabawsa 888]

Interesting. Are you certain that he actually used those words?

Also, I felt I had an almost encyclopaedic knowledge of our signings during the Souness era. I remember the lesser known names such as Dave McKellar, Lindsay Hamilton, Davie Kirkwood, Jimmy Phillips, Colin West and Chris Vinnicombe, but Jim Murphy is not familiar to me and at the age of 22, he wouldn't be an unknown youth player.

See my earlier post. He is being taken out of context with trying some humour. He worked in hospitality at Ibrox not on the playing staff.

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

See my earlier post. He is being taken out of context with trying some humour. He worked in hospitality at Ibrox not on the playing staff.

Sorry mate. I was being a bit dim, there, thinking he was implying he had both roles, like an apprentice cleaning the boots.

I plead guilty with the sole mitigation that I was scanning for certain phrases and did indeed miss the humour and the context.

You are correct on this one.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

Its an interesting concept Oleg.

There were Catholic players who would not sign - Celtic from inception had a particularly strong not only Catholic/Irish identity but one of their early directors (cant remember his name but there is a whole chapter on it in Bill Murray's The Old Firm & Sectarianism) was particularly prominent doing public meetings etc.

I think the reaction to the signings of Mojo & Neil McCann, and the abuse their families had to endure, demonstrate there is still a belief amongst elements of the Celtic support that Catholics signing for Rangers are "traitors"

[Thermopylae 15,286]

I'm sure most of you know him as a fan of the East end lot, but he's been getting some stick on his efforts for the NO campaign. He also spoke supportively about us in 2012 during administration. So I've had a bit of a mixed perception of him.

I heard on Radio Scotland that he had written a book called "The 10 Matches That Changed the World". Instantly, I wondered if he'd include the Old Firm and whether that would be done in a way that "revealed his true colours".

Using the "Look Inside" feature on Amazon, I noticed that it did have a chapter on the Old Firm. That grabbed my curiosity, so I read the chapter in question using Google Play's sample feature.

I suspected he would over-romanticise his own club and vilify ours. I was mainly surprised.

He actually criticises his fellow supporters for both over-romanticising their own club, but also for the IRA chants, which he condemns vociferously. He also accepts that he can be blinded by " [in politics ] red-rose-tinded glasses and, in football, [he] swaps them for hooped emerald-green ones".

He asks "when did Rangers start their signing policy?". After consulting club historians from both sides of the divide, he settles that it was around 1924 but cannot "name a date or board meeting decision 'we are a Protestant football club' was made".

History books elsewhere have indicated that we did have many known Catholics in our early years and beyond(Catholics who signed for Rangers before Johnston include, before the end of World War I: Pat Lafferty (1886), Tom Dunbar (1891–1892), J Tutty (1899–1900), Archie Kyle (1904–1908), Willie Kivlichan (1906–1907), Colin Mainds (1906–1907), Tom Murray (1907–1908), William Brown (1912), Joe Donnachie (circa.1914–1918) and John Jackson (1917). Thereafter, Catholic players prior to Mo Johnston's signing include: Laurie Blyth (1951–1952), Don Kitchenbrand (1955–1956), Hugh O'Neill (1976), John Spencer (1985–1992) (Bill Murray, The Old Firm – Sectarianism, Sport and Society in Scotland (John Donald Publishers, 1984) pp 64–5)

So you have a period of 34 years where we didn't sign a Catholic. However, Graham Spiers in an article about Bill Struth, published in the Herald about a decade ago, suggests that Mr Struth tried to sign several Catholics, but they refused, preferring to join the Catholic club. So even those 34 years don't fully justify such a claim.

I contend, that despite much media consensus that there was such a policy, that there was no actual policy, and that it was either an accident of history or more a practice, instead.

On the other hand, he accepts that Brother Walfrid had an aspiration for an all Catholic team but that "a religious bias in team selection [that] never became reality", using a rheumatoid Orangeman, TomDuff, played in goal in 1892, but lost 8 goals to Dumbarton after overdosing on his medication,as evidence. I thought otherwise, and researched a little bit more.

All of Walfrid's first team were indeed Catholics. I won't list them for you here, but I had to visit a couple of sites I never use to confirm this.

In conclusion, I stand by my original position that we never had such a policy, as such, but that our rivals did, and furthermore, that they achieved their aspiration. I may write to Mr Murphy about this, but do not think that he has been intentionally unfair to us.

His chapter never reaches the levels of bias that you might fear, but I do feel his view is somewhat skewed from the reality, although not by any massive measure. I agree with him, and some of his contributors that the Protestant identity became more a concious part of our Club in the 20s, with the influx of Ulster shipyard workers Harland and Wolff on the banks of the Clyde, and would also agree that it was Scotland and Scottish society that wanted a Protestant Scottish club as a counterweight to the Irish Catholic club. (I think it was Bill Murray who also wrote this and suggested that Queens Park were Scotland's first choice as a Scottish Protestant club.)This also happened between the wars, after the great depression and such social frictions can develop at such times. It's a common phenomena in human social history.

In closing, I would say that Mr Murphy has been rather fair, and can be allowed what I think are minor, if important, variances from fact. I suspect he would, however, be open to my research if presented with it. I am also quite happy with his efforts outwith this matter in relation to the referendum. In his defence, he helped organise a charity match at Ibrox, and actually scored a diving header, of which he seems rather proud, for the Rangers team on that day. Here is photographic evidence below, and I hope it doesn't offend your eyes. Nonetheless, it does appear that the media have been massively unfair to us on this subject over many decades, so I credit him with a surprising level of balance. It would have been very easy for him to put the hackneyed old boot into us, given his preferences, but he hasn't.

Good post and I can't believe that picture :000000082:

I wonder if him moving to South Africa made a difference to his perspective on life? It may have opened his eyes slightly

[gsa 3,906]

Good post and I can't believe that picture :000000082:

I wonder if him moving to South Africa made a difference to his perspective on life? It may have opened his eyes slightly

He was only there as a youngster. From his politics I would say that probably his move back to the Uk and Glasgow was more influential.

He's no Bokke!

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

Its an interesting concept Oleg.

There were Catholic players who would not sign - Celtic from inception had a particularly strong not only Catholic/Irish identity but one of their early directors (cant remember his name but there is a whole chapter on it in Bill Murray's The Old Firm & Sectarianism) was particularly prominent doing public meetings etc.

I think the reaction to the signings of Mojo & Neil McCann, and the abuse their families had to endure, demonstrate there is still a belief amongst elements of the Celtic support that Catholics signing for Rangers are "traitors"

Was the director that you refer to Pat Welsh , a known terrorist and criminal, who made his escape from justice with the aid of Willie Maley's father? I read that some time ago and verified the information just there, using one of their sites, which actually describes him as a "fenian activist". The other name that comes to mind for such a role is John Glass. (Further Googling reveals that Glass is the likelier candidate.)

I have often felt that we have been the naive party in planned propaganda war using the dirtiest of tactics. They're like the kid in the playground that starts a fight, then complains to teacher when the other kid starts to retaliate. The use of the terms "fenian" and "orange" are just two battlefields in a dirty war, in which we were naive enough to play the gullible fool hung out to dry.

As an aside, I discovered a Spiers article from last year in which he castigates us for a century long policy, in which a few Catholics slipped through the net, without any evidence whatsoever of an actual policy. Yet several years previous to this, he had an article published in The Herald commemorating Bill Struth, in which he reported Mr Struths unsuccessful (rejected) attempts to sign several Catholic players. Was it merely a negligent oversight when writing the later, far more scathing, article? Or could it be that Mr Spiers has an agenda and is without integrity?

[tollboy-noey 50]

He critesised the Orange Order in July? I wondered why.

[Carsons Dog 9,878]

Was the director that you refer to Pat Welsh , a known terrorist and criminal, who made his escape from justice with the aid of Willie Maley's father? I read that some time ago and verified the information just there, using one of their sites, which actually describes him as a "fenian activist". The other name that comes to mind for such a role is John Glass. (Further Googling reveals that Glass is the likelier candidate.)

I have often felt that we have been the naive party in planned propaganda war using the dirtiest of tactics. They're like the kid in the playground that starts a fight, then complains to teacher when the other kid starts to retaliate. The use of the terms "fenian" and "orange" are just two battlefields in a dirty war, in which we were naive enough to play the gullible fool hung out to dry.

As an aside, I discovered a Spiers article from last year in which he castigates us for a century long policy, in which a few Catholics slipped through the net, without any evidence whatsoever of an actual policy. Yet several years previous to this, he had an article published in The Herald commemorating Bill Struth, in which he reported Mr Struths unsuccessful (rejected) attempts to sign several Catholic players. Was it merely a negligent oversight when writing the later, far more scathing, article? Or could it be that Mr Spiers has an agenda and is without integrity?

A blog on Welsh & Glass may be useful

[GOAT 30,449]

See no matter your opinion of him or his opinions, he is one of the few getting out there and defending the union so he has my respect for that. What's going to happen on the 18th September is bigger than what religion he is, what football team he supports. As things stand I don't care he has my backing. Come 19th September and IF Scotland has voted No. I'll get back to hating him for being a tim.

[Helicopter Sundae 5,988]

If Jim Murphy wants Rangers treated fairly what is preventing him from tabling a question in parliament regarding the HMRC obsession with Rangers, the money being spent on appeals and the leaks from within aforesaid HMRC to certain taig journalists. C'mon Jim let's see some of your impartiality.

Precisely, because if that twat George Galloway can put down an Early Day Motion regarding Rangers, and further sullying our name, then Jim Murphy could redress the balance and do something positive FOR the club, even if the entire remainder of his party wished us dead. I will not forget the Scottish labour MSP laughing at us in Hollyrood.

[sandyinroyalblue 16,478]

See no matter your opinion of him or his opinions, he is one of the few getting out there and defending the union so he has my respect for that. What's going to happen on the 18th September is bigger than what religion he is, what football team he supports. As things stand I don't care he has my backing. Come 19th September and IF Scotland has voted No. I'll get back to hating him for being a tim.

[sandyinroyalblue 16,478]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/rangers/6440632/Secretary-of-State-for-Scotland-Jim-Murphy-holds-talks-with-Rangers-bankers.html