Belgrade Derby (with Rangers spin)

[JamieD 18,961]

1 hour ago, Inigo said:

Fuckin hell. 

http://observer.theguardian.com/osm/story/0,6903,1123137,00.html

 

See, I wonder how much it has changed in recent years or how much of that is the normal western media anti-Serb stuff, because I didn't get that kind of vibe at all. It's hard to form an opinion from one game but the atmosphere was intense, yes, but not poisonous. The ultras even make a joke of applauding the opposition's songs and displays. Ironically, considering the reference to the Delije chanting about Partizan fans being turks, muslims, faggots etc, it was at Partizan's stadium that I saw a few bits of nazi graffiti, swastikas and SS runes and stuff like that.

[AlCapone 7,678]

No many people know it but Arkan was looking after the Serbian orthodox Christians stranded in catholic Croatia for 50 years after the Croatians stole their land.  In the 40s the catholic Croatian leader was a puppet of hitlers and along yes ALONG with the CATHOLIC church they created 4 years of genocide and ethnically cleansed 2million Jews, orthodox Christians and gypsies to create a catholic state.... Watch the video

 

 

 

[Inigo 32,534]

15 minutes ago, AlCapone said:

No many people know it but Arkan was looking after the Serbian orthodox Christians stranded in catholic Croatia for 50 years after the Croatians stole their land.  In the 40s the catholic Croatian leader was a puppet of hitlers and along yes ALONG with the CATHOLIC church they created 4 years of genocide and ethnically cleansed 2million Jews, orthodox Christians and gypsies to create a catholic state.... Watch the video

 

 

 

Yip, knew what the Croatian state did during WW2. 

Arkan was looking after the Serbs by engaging in genocide though. That many Croats did the same just means that alot of them were no better.

Arkan was a genocidal, raping, murderous, thieving scumbag. And not just against Croats. Pretty sure you can tell from their faces that these Muslims know what's coming their way. And it's not a friendly drink in a hotel...

And outside of the war he was a career criminal as well. I reckon the war was more about providing him with an outlet for his cuntishness than a desire to help anyone else.

Suffice to say, there would have been Arkans on all sides. But seeing as we're talking about him specifically in the context of JamieD's post, he was undeniably an utter, utter bastard of the first degree.

[JamieD 18,961]

41 minutes ago, AlCapone said:

No many people know it but Arkan was looking after the Serbian orthodox Christians stranded in catholic Croatia for 50 years after the Croatians stole their land.  In the 40s the catholic Croatian leader was a puppet of hitlers and along yes ALONG with the CATHOLIC church they created 4 years of genocide and ethnically cleansed 2million Jews, orthodox Christians and gypsies to create a catholic state.... Watch the video

 

 

 

The Western narrative of the Serbs as a uniquely bloodthirsty perpretrator in the Yugoslav wars is hilariously simplistic. Both Milosevic and Franjo Tudjman planned the division of Bosnia between themselves. Croatia launched ethnic cleansing campaigns not only against the ordinary Serb pensioners, women and children (whom we are told deserved it, because their leaders were "nationalists", but also against the Bosnian Muslim pensioners, women and children, who have been depicted (with some justification) as the saintly, innocent victims (though their armed defenders and their foreign jihadi mercenaries were rampaging about, burning Serb villages and beheading people with NATO support). Tudjman admitted that Croatia had concentration camps, excusing it by saying "So do the Serbs". It's an established fact that Croatia, with US military support, ethnically cleansed 200,000 Serbs from Croatia in 1995 at the end of the war, killing everyone who stayed behind, mostly pensioners.

Several generals were indicted for this as a crime against humanity (not the US generals who organised it, of course) So why are Croats not a pariah people, despite an ingrained far right nationalism that led such popular international figures as Zvonomir Boban and Goran Ivanisevic to write a letter of protest to the Croation government when it dared to extradite some of its own war criminals to the Hague to secure EU membership? Which led much-respected Euro 96 and France 98 hero Davor Suker to pay tribute at the genocidal nazi collaborator Ante Pavelic's grave, who slaughtered Serbs in their hundreds of thousands during the holocaust. Suker, of course, went on to play for Arsenal without any knock to his reputation. It's almost like there's some kind of double standard here that absolves our political allies for doing the very same that we condemn in others

Arkan was an opportunistic gangster and probably a psychopath, as will have been plenty who joined him, but I don't see any more reason why the Croatian Serbs should have been expected to submit to the rule of an openly anti-Serb nationalist Croatian government than the Croats should have been expected to submit to Milosevic. The trouble with civil wars is that arguably just causes are inevitably fought with indefensible methods. When you have self-declared statelets and paramilitary organisations, neither of which consider themselves subject to international law, what restraint is there?

[the goal machine 7,803]

That looks incredible. Read a story in an article where Walter went to scout Red Star and he just came back and said "we're fucked"

[JamieD 18,961]

1 minute ago, the goal machine said:

That looks incredible. Read a story in an article where Walter went to scout Red Star and he just came back and said "we're fucked"

The pass that Prosinecki played to set up the first (own) goal in Belgrade against us is one of the best I have ever seen. Genius.

[the goal machine 7,803]

2 minutes ago, JamieD said:

The pass that Prosinecki played to set up the first (own) goal in Belgrade against us is one of the best I have ever seen. Genius.

Aye, it's unbelievable. Watched the highlights of the 3-0 game a few times even though we get pumped.

[Inigo 32,534]

Prosinecki, Hagi, Stoichkov... The Balkans had a great breed of footballer back then.

[bombaybadboy08 15,660]

Amazingly I've always had a soft spot for Red Star due to that team that pumped us, hard not to admire their style and quality of players though.

 

[One Jock Wallace 858]

On 29/02/2016 at 2:15 PM, AlCapone said:

No many people know it but Arkan was looking after the Serbian orthodox Christians stranded in catholic Croatia for 50 years after the Croatians stole their land.  In the 40s the catholic Croatian leader was a puppet of hitlers and along yes ALONG with the CATHOLIC church they created 4 years of genocide and ethnically cleansed 2million Jews, orthodox Christians and gypsies to create a catholic state.... Watch the video

 

 

 

What land did Croatia steal from Serbia? It was the former Yogoslavian army (prodominatly Serb) and local Serb forces who invaded Croatia and Slovenia when they declared independance and attempted to conquer as much of Slovenia and Croatia as possible to create a new Serbian state.

Arkan was one of many psychopaths who take advantage of war and was not only "looking after" his people trapped inside Croatia. 

[Inigo 32,534]

53 minutes ago, One Jock Wallace said:

What land did Croatia steal from Serbia? It was the former Yogoslavian army (prodominatly Serb) and local Serb forces who invaded Croatia and Slovenia when they declared independance and attempted to conquer as much of Slovenia and Croatia as possible to create a new Serbian state.

Arkan was one of many psychopaths who take advantage of war and was not only "looking after" his people trapped inside Croatia. 

Croats ethnically cleansed most of Serbia Krajina during the Bosnian war as well, extending into parts of Bosnian Serb territory. Hundreds of thousands of Serbs were made refugees and many of those that remained were killed. The southern part of Serbia Krajina is Croat now, where it used to be Serb Majority. It was a pretty massive area that was cleansed.

The Croats also ethnically cleansed Bosniaks. 2000 in Lasva Valley for example.

[AlCapone 7,678]

47 minutes ago, One Jock Wallace said:

What land did Croatia steal from Serbia? It was the former Yogoslavian army (prodominatly Serb) and local Serb forces who invaded Croatia and Slovenia when they declared independance and attempted to conquer as much of Slovenia and Croatia as possible to create a new Serbian state.

Arkan was one of many psychopaths who take advantage of war and was not only "looking after" his people trapped inside Croatia. 

Eh the Croatia Catholic Church  in 1945 backed by hitler stole their land and ethnically cleansed  2 million non Catholics from the stolen lands.... Had the penny dropedd yet? 

[Inigo 32,534]

5 minutes ago, AlCapone said:

Eh the Croatia Catholic Church  in 1945 backed by hitler stole their land and ethnically cleansed  2 million non Catholics from the stolen lands.... Had the penny dropedd yet? 

Yip. 3 or 400 000 Serbs killed alone, led by the Ustase and church, depending on what estimates you believe. And that doesn't include the hundreds of thousands forced to convert to Catholicism, and hundreds of thousands evicted from their homes and land and expelled.

And then there was the Ustase persecution of the Bosniaks...

[JamieD 18,961]

17 minutes ago, Inigo said:

Croats ethnically cleansed most of Serbia Krajina during the Bosnian war as well, extending into parts of Bosnian Serb territory. Hundreds of thousands of Serbs were made refugees and many of those that remained were killed. The southern part of Serbia Krajina is Croat now, where it used to be Serb Majority. It was a pretty massive area that was cleansed.

The Croats also ethnically cleansed Bosniaks. 2000 in Lasva Valley for example.

In 1991, 85% of people in Knin were Serbs. In 2001 it was 20%. If it happened anywhere else in the world to any other people it would be called genocide. When it happened in Srebrenica to the Bosniaks it WAS called genocide. When it happens to Serbs, even elderly Serbs in their own homes, it's called self-defence.

[bluedylan 11,555]

nobody embraced Nazism more than the Croatians

 

[JamieD 18,961]

The Croatian Serb leaders were a rotten lot, especially Milan Martic, but let's have some context. Croatia committed genocide against the Serbs during World War 2, the last time it was "independent" and led by a nationalist. Then along comes Franjo Tudjman, bringing back the flag of the Ustashe regime, making public slurs against Serbs and Jews, defending Pavelic's legacy and getting his mole in the Yugoslav army to indulge in a spot of gun-running to form a secret army, negotiations for which are secretly filmed and broadcast on the evening news, while Croatia is still a republic of Yugoslavia, protected by the federal army, which had repeatedly denied Milosevic's attempts to override their neutrality and put down the rebellion. Snakes in the bosom, the army wringing their hands and refusing to act and a load of rabble-rousing nationalists promising to defend you from the fascist Croat threat. Meanwhile even the "moderate" Croat leaders like Stipe Mesic are standing up in parliament crowing that "Soon the chequered flag will fly high over Knin". Who do you throw your lot in with?

[Inigo 32,534]

A more pro-Serbian, Western critical point production. Haven't watched all of it yet, but Germany particularly doesn't come out well from this particular point of view..

 

[One Jock Wallace 858]

26 minutes ago, AlCapone said:

Eh the Croatia Catholic Church  in 1945 backed by hitler stole their land and ethnically cleansed  2 million non Catholics from the stolen lands.... Had the penny dropedd yet? 

And what land was that exactly?

My point was that it was the Serbs who attacked Croatia after they declared independance from Yugoslavia. 

I`m only too well aware of what the Ustace regime did but I don`t see the logic that their atrocities somehow validates Serb aggresion 40 years later.

As for Knin, I have family who once lived there and as in any war, attrocities happen but the fact that so many ethnic Serbs are no longer there is because they were given passage to return to Serbia. They were also given a promise of security by the government but given the climate at the time they did not trust the Croatians to protect them and who would blame them.

[JamieD 18,961]

49 minutes ago, One Jock Wallace said:

And what land was that exactly?

My point was that it was the Serbs who attacked Croatia after they declared independance from Yugoslavia. 

I`m only too well aware of what the Ustace regime did but I don`t see the logic that their atrocities somehow validates Serb aggresion 40 years later.

As for Knin, I have family who once lived there and as in any war, attrocities happen but the fact that so many ethnic Serbs are no longer there is because they were given passage to return to Serbia. They were also given a promise of security by the government but given the climate at the time they did not trust the Croatians to protect them and who would blame them.

"Given passage to return to Serbia"?! They weren't Serbian. They were Croatian Serbs. They fled for their lives from an advancing army. And many of those who remained were killed. That's why "so many ethnic Serbs are no longer there". This kind of justification of Serb crimes is understandably met with accusations of extreme poor taste and questionable motivation.

For some reason, no Croat I have ever heard of thought that the autonomy of Vojvodina or Kosovo was outrageous, only that Milosevic ending said autonomy was outrageous. Few speak of the self-declared Croatian Republic of Herzeg-Bosnia, their Bosnian equivalent of the Serbs' "genocidal statelets" in such terms. It was just Croatia carving out a space to protect its people, in the eyes of the watching world. Why then was the Croatian Serbs' self-declared Krajina an "attack" on Croatia? And why was the federal army's support of those Croatian citizens within its own previously defined sovereign territory, the independence of which was still legally disputed in the international community long after the outbreak of hostilities, suddenly an expansionist attack?

Who could blame the Serbs indeed. The Bosnians who trusted Tudjman's promises of friendship only to be locked in his concentration camps could surely sympathise.

 

[One Jock Wallace 858]

16 minutes ago, JamieD said:

"Given passage to return to Serbia"?! They weren't Serbian. They were Croatian Serbs. They fled for their lives from an advancing army. And many of those who remained were killed. That's why "so many ethnic Serbs are no longer there". This kind of justification of Serb crimes is understandably met with accusations of extreme poor taste and questionable motivation.

For some reason, no Croat I have ever heard of thought that the autonomy of Vojvodina or Kosovo was outrageous, only that Milosevic ending said autonomy was outrageous. Few speak of the self-declared Croatian Republic of Herzeg-Bosnia, their Bosnian equivalent of the Serbs' "genocidal statelets" in such terms. It was just Croatia carving out a space to protect its people, in the eyes of the watching world. Why then was the Croatian Serbs' self-declared Krajina an "attack" on Croatia? And why was the federal army's support of those Croatian citizens within its own previously defined sovereign territory, the independence of which was still legally disputed in the international community long after the outbreak of hostilities, suddenly an expansionist attack?

Who could blame the Serbs indeed. The Bosnians who trusted Tudjman's promises of friendship only to be locked in his concentration camps could surely sympathise.

 

"In 1991, 85% of people in Knin were Serbs. In 2001 it was 20%. If it happened anywhere else in the world to any other people it would be called genocide" and then you say they fled for their lives. So is it genocide or a mass exodus of refugees going to a place of where they feel safe? You can`t have it both ways. I`m not for 1 minute saying the Croats didnt commit atrocities as they exist in all wars but to suggest the they commited mass genocide after the break up of Yugolslavia is absolute nonsence. If its not please tell me where the mass graves are and why is there still 23% of the population ethnic Serb in Knin?

[One Jock Wallace 858]

Its a really muddy and depressing area regardng genocide. If we`re comparing Croats with Serbs, from my knowledge on the whole, the Croatian army took prisoners of war (including 4000 during operation storm) They did not systematically round up the whole population or part of, and murder them in cold blood and hide them in mass graves, however paramilitarys like Arkan boasted that they dont take prisoners, and we all know what that means. He was a sadist and people trying to paint him as the protector should be ashamed.

I won`t stand back and read stuff that is written with such a one sided and imo incorrect narrative, and I`m not aiming that at you. I admire your passion for the topic but I have a very first hand experience of this and I`ll leave it at that.

At the end of the day we`re both Bears and got another 3 points tonight.

[JamieD 18,961]

42 minutes ago, One Jock Wallace said:

Its a really muddy and depressing area regardng genocide. If we`re comparing Croats with Serbs, from my knowledge on the whole, the Croatian army took prisoners of war (including 4000 during operation storm) They did not systematically round up the whole population or part of, and murder them in cold blood and hide them in mass graves, however paramilitarys like Arkan boasted that they dont take prisoners, and we all know what that means. He was a sadist and people trying to paint him as the protector should be ashamed.

I won`t stand back and read stuff that is written with such a one sided and imo incorrect narrative, and I`m not aiming that at you. I admire your passion for the topic but I have a very first hand experience of this and I`ll leave it at that.

At the end of the day we`re both Bears and got another 3 points tonight.

Well, agreed as far as Arkan is concerned. The trouble is there are very few narratives of the recent history of the Balkans that AREN'T one-sided and the only way to come to any kind of balanced understanding of what went on is to read the biased accounts of all sides and throw away what is opinion rather than fact. When you do that, you realise that apportioning blame is like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500, as Martin Sheen says in Apocalypse Now. I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with people detailing the specific crimes committed by the Serbs, which were heinous and far more numerous than those committed by the other sides. It's the fact that so often people feel the need to leaven these facts with pure fabrication that I find reprehensible, because it suggests an agenda. Likewise I'm not directing that at you. You obviously have a personal stake in it for family reasons, this is why you can say things like the Croats gave Croatian Serbs safe passage "to return to Serbia" and you probably don't even realise how it sounds. Others have no such excuse. When you see, to this day, reasonably well-respected mainstream media outlets like the Guardian, The Times and the BBC, as well as the leaders of the free world refer to Milosevic's speech at the Kosovo field as some kind of race-baiting, inflammatory screed of nationalism that exhorted the Serbs to turn against their neighbours and how it was the moment that he climbed to power on the back of simmering racial tension and then you actually read it and find it's full of the kind of platitudes about ethnic and social harmony you would expect from a Guardian reader, you realise there's something seriously wrong  He did enough awful things to make lying unnecessary,

Anyway, I didn't intend this as a "getting the last word in" thing. I'm happy for you to leave it at that.

Fuck Alan Stubbs 

[Tiger Shaw 30,526]

On 2/29/2016 at 10:45 AM, Inigo said:

I guess that would be the 'Delije' (Red Star Ultras)?

I spent a bit of last night reading about them and their relationship to Arkan (the fucking nutter/ career criminal/genocidal maniac in the Bosnian War). For anyone that doesn't know, it's an interesting story. Apparently his unit, the Serb Volunteer Guard (Arkan's Tigers) was made up mostly of Delije members. Their involvement in the war kind of began with a massive riot and fight with Dinamo Zagreb fans just after the Croat elections when Yugoslavia was splitting. The group then killed, murdered, raped and looted their way through 4 years of the war, as well as giving Kosovans some shit whilst they were forming and training.

Maybe the only fans group implicated on crimes against humanity charges? Mmmm, nah. I'm sure other Yugoslav ones will have too... have we yet for singing songs? 

And just by the way, I had no idea his pre-war criminal history was quite so mental. Mostly across western Europe he was involved in armed robberies numbering in the teens, burglaries numbering in the 20s, beating people up, shooting police and 4 prison escapes (aided by the Yugoslav secret services and others??). Now a hero amongst some Serbs for his conduct in the war.

Red Star fans group selfie...

Wonder if they spent their time putting their stickers on lampposts too. 

More likely they were putting heads on lampposts.... 

 

I actually used to talk online with a couple of lads that are the modern day Delije,  spoke regularly with them for about 4 years and sent some Rangers memorabilia  and stuff in the post to them.  Good lads, wee bit nutty but they hated the tims and were interested in learning about our clubs history and always asking about our results and for videos of our support.    

They told me they respect our fans after we went there in 08,  said we were braver than any other visiting supporters from Europe  

A few of them in that picture would have been at Ibrox in 90 before the country went tits up. Probably the  most feared paramilitary unit in the whole of the Balkans at the time. The lads I talked with were only weans during the war but had some horrific storys to tell.  Ordinary Serbs were as much victims as anybody else.

Got a lot of respect for Crvena  Zvezda,  the team they had in 90-91 was one of the best teams I've ever had the pleasure to watch in the flesh. 

Their fans were in BF1 in 1990, I was at the corner of the west enclosure looking right in at  them, I remember one of their fans burning a Rangers scarf.... Cunt

[Gaz52 11,837]

Not sure if I've stumbled upon a football thread or a history lesson, either way there's some cracking reading.

I've always wanted to go away and experience hostile derby matches to see how they compare to an Old Firm. I mean just watching games on TV and seeing YouTube videos, the noise and displays etc are much better than an Old Firm but I just don't think you'll find a couple teams fans that hate each other as much as Gers-Celtic. 

I think maybe a neutral experiencing an Old Firm would feel slightly let down as they don't understand just how much it really matters to both sets of supporters

[Guest]

I mind the Red Star game at Ibrox, their fans were mental, we were singing We Love You Rangers, then all of a sudden they started belting out We Love You Red Star We Do! In English