12 Angry Men

[eskbankloyal 19,446]

43 minutes ago, Virtuoso said:

 

Maybe C1872 should be asking questions about the structure (or lack off) in place that led to his appointment and asking the board (Robertson / Park) to justify or explain what they saw fit in appointing him - as it's bewildering to everyone other than the board.

...but then that would involve Blair questioning his bosses judgement   Maybe they'll only be issuing statements when dodgy reffing can be brought into question.

The fact we appointed a manager before a DoF is another issue that made no sense.

Goes back to the structural issues.

[Zulu 981]

Hes this hes that the guys a fukin diddy manager thats not going to end soon

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

4 hours ago, D'Artagnan said:

If the Rangers support were a jury, I think it would safe to say we had reached a majority rather than a unanimous decision on Pedro. An early exit to European minnows from Luxembourg on the back of an embarrassing defeat to our greatest rivals at home, whilst losing our long-established home record to the sheep would suggest that a fairly compelling prima facie case had been established by that majority.

Furthermore, an inauspicious start to the season makes it all the more difficult to introduce a reasonable element of doubt into the minds of those who are currently sitting in the majority camp and whose minds are clearly made up so to speak.

Should we pause for a moment and recall Advocaat’s multi-million £ squad, albeit not with home advantage, losing 6-2 at Parkhead? Should we consider that even some great Rangers managers, with far more settled squads suffered worse starts in their first 3 games of the domestic league? Should we ponder the fact that abysmal refereeing had a major say in 2 of our last 3 league games?

Perhaps we could reflect on the fact we are into a rebuilding programme which is clearly not yet complete, before we decide to sack the architect.

The first few years of Sir Alex Ferguson’s tenure at Manchester United were characterised by something of a roller coaster ride which saw them take a few backward steps before their record winning period of success. Having been appointed in 1986, it was season 92/93 before the Reds won their first championship under the tenure of Sir Alex. While such a comparison certainly qualifies as an “apples and oranges” evaluation, the virtues of patience and a realistic assessment of the challenges faced should not be excluded either.

As always, the OF games will have a considerable bearing on the manager’s future. We have to hope Kranjcar’s recent interview where he suggested we could lose all 4 OF games and still challenge for the title is a form of delusion exclusive to Niko, and not the rest of the dressing room or the management.

There is a popular saying that the “league table never lies”. Would it be prudent to wait until the end of the season and put this theory to the test rather than jump on the managerial merry go round prematurely?

Good post! It's a shame the thread wil most likely just become another Pedro is shite thread but good post. 

[Courtyard Bear 41,357]

1 hour ago, K.A.I said:

But I'm asking if we could afford it - would your answer still be no?

Aye NO, he gets the season for me. 

If we have another terrible season then I will be asking for his head. 

I think folk need to realise that unless we get new ownership and serious money invested we aren't stopping 10 iar no matter what manager we have. 

[Courtyard Bear 41,357]

1 hour ago, OhW said:

You said it's bonkers to sack a manager after 6 months. I gave you two example where it seemed like the right thing to do. 

Why don't you list some mangers who turned it round after an awful first 6 months? It would back up your point. We all know Alex Ferguson, who else?

It's your point your trying to make, I think it's bonkers to sack any manager after 6 months. 

 

[Courtyard Bear 41,357]

1 hour ago, Frank Harrison said:

That we can't afford to sack him and bring someone else in

No one said we are loaded

I seriously doubt we have that kind of money without the current shareholder spread digging deep before they have to dig deep again to get us to ST renewal time next season. 

[K.A.I 36,183]

8 minutes ago, Courtyard Bear said:

Aye NO, he gets the season for me. 

If we have another terrible season then I will be asking for his head. 

I think folk need to realise that unless we get new ownership and serious money invested we aren't stopping 10 iar no matter what manager we have. 

First part regarding getting the season unconditionally then fair enough (even if I disagree) but the second part of your post is a problem - why is it win the league or don't bother? Is there nothing in between that such as win a cup, close the gap and get into Europe proper? We should be aiming for that before challenging the fenians - last season should have been that period 

[Courtyard Bear 41,357]

Just now, K.A.I said:

Fair part regarding getting the season unconditionally then fair enough (even if I disagree) but the second part of your post is a problem - why is it win the league or don't bother? Is there nothing in between that such as win a cup, close the gap and get into Europe proper? We should be aiming for that before challenging the fenians - last season should have been that period 

I know your not happy finishing second and maybe winning a cup every other year. Because I bloody hate it. 

And under the current ownership I can't see us doing anything else but that, with the occasional year where we may run them close. 

The roles used to be reversed and I never saw them getting close to us, but they had a change of owner and good investment. That's what we need. 

[Bristoe1872 2,654]

1 hour ago, Brackley Bluenose said:

IMO the key reason, we have so many people calling for his head is simply impatience. Just because we are Rangers and we've been brought up on success of the highest order, It doesn't mean you can just change your whole team and expect it to click instantly. We've just got rid of one of the worst Rangers teams ever assembled. It will take time unfortunately. 

It would take less time if we had the right man in charge. Which at the moment we clearly do not.

[K.A.I 36,183]

10 minutes ago, Courtyard Bear said:

I know your not happy finishing second and maybe winning a cup every other year. Because I bloody hate it. 

And under the current ownership I can't see us doing anything else but that, with the occasional year where we may run them close. 

The roles used to be reversed and I never saw them getting close to us, but they had a change of owner and good investment. That's what we need. 

But we won't even be assured of finish second or winning a cup with Pedro that's what I'm saying so why not make the change and lead a progression where we can then build on that 

id rather make a change and comfortably finish second, maybe a cup and compete in Europa than fight it out for third with no European football with Pedro 

[OnwardsandUpwards 834]

51 minutes ago, Brackley Bluenose said:

Out of interest, what makes the Qatari or Mexican league inferior to the Scottish Prem? Our league is horrific, to put it mildly. The ship with Scottish football has sailed. The day we join any other league will be the happiest day of my life. Players leave Scottish clubs to join conference/league 2, and only in the odd exception higher up the ladder. 

This in a nutshell sums it up for me.I honestly think peoples expectations of who wants to come into this league or manage in this league are totally unrealistic.No one outside our country rates it,no decent players worth their salt will want to play in it and for the most part any decent young players can't wait to get out of it.Having spent almost half of my life in England the apathy towards our football up here is practically universal.Oh they may have a "Scottish" team they look out for but that's only a token thing.

I believe a manager needs a full season with his own squad to be judged with any degree of impartiality or fairness.This get a new manager in and clear the boards cycle ,very very rarely works unless the club involved has mega money to invest and that's certainly not us.

I do believe this squad is much better than last seasons.Its far from perfect but I don't believe any squad ever is as positions can always be strengthened.Fans the world over will always find faults with their teams no matter who they support and as a fan base we are probably right up there with the most unimpressed of them.We want success back and we want it yesterday!Unfortunately that's not the case and its taking longer than we would have hoped.

This is mainly down to things that happened before Pedro arrived.McCoists total lack of management credentials coupled with off field issues totally fucked us up.MW came along and had a philosophy but no backbone which filtered down throughout his teams.He left a squad bereft of fight or passion.

In the short time Pedro has been here,and in footballing terms it is a really SHORT time,he has practically shipped out that entire team.No one thought he could but he has managed it.He has also gone about strengthening the spine  of the team.People moaned this was a priority and I doubt many would argue that it's not significantly better than last season.

Results have been poor so far this season and ok refereeing decisions aside which HAVE cost us they should be better.As an attending fan of almost 45 years I have seen some abysmal starts to seasons which have gone on to be very successful and some fantastic starts which have faded out into mediocrity.In this time it's fair to say the team generally end up where it deserves.Only a full season dictates this not how it starts especially with so many new recruits.Experience and history has told me to bide my time before making rash judgements.In the case of Pedro I will wait and see.After all who exactly do our fragmented support feel will want to come to us and replace him but more importantly be a big enough name to rally behind?Fucked if I can name anyone!That unfortunately is the position we find ourselves in  at present.

[K.A.I 36,183]

Just now, OnwardsandUpwards said:

This in a nutshell sums it up for me.I honestly think peoples expectations of who wants to come into this league or manage in this league are totally unrealistic.No one outside our country rates it,no decent players worth their salt will want to play in it and for the most part any decent young players can't wait to get out of it.Having spent almost half of my life in England the apathy towards our football up here is practically universal.Oh they may have a "Scottish" team they look out for but that's only a token thing.

I believe a manager needs a full season with his own squad to be judged with any degree of impartiality or fairness.This get a new manager in and clear the boards cycle ,very very rarely works unless the club involved has mega money to invest and that's certainly not us.

I do believe this squad is much better than last seasons.Its far from perfect but I don't believe any squad ever is as positions can always be strengthened.Fans the world over will always find faults with their teams no matter who they support and as a fan base we are probably right up there with the most unimpressed of them.We want success back and we want it yesterday!Unfortunately that's not the case and its taking longer than we would have hoped.

This is mainly down to things that happened before Pedro arrived.McCoists total lack of management credentials coupled with off field issues totally fucked us up.MW came along and had a philosophy but no backbone which filtered down throughout his teams.He left a squad bereft of fight or passion.

In the short time Pedro has been here,and in footballing terms it is a really SHORT time,he has practically shipped out that entire team.No one thought he could but he has managed it.He has also gone about strengthening the spine  of the team.People moaned this was a priority and I doubt many would argue that it's not significantly better than last season.

Results have been poor so far this season and ok refereeing decisions aside which HAVE cost us they should be better.As an attending fan of almost 45 years I have seen some abysmal starts to seasons which have gone on to be very successful and some fantastic starts which have faded out into mediocrity.In this time it's fair to say the team generally end up where it deserves.Only a full season dictates this not how it starts especially with so many new recruits.Experience and history has told me to bide my time before making rash judgements.In the case of Pedro I will wait and see.After all who exactly do our fragmented support feel will want to come to us and replace him but more importantly be a big enough name to rally behind?Fucked if I can name anyone!That unfortunately is the position we find ourselves in  at present.

Wanting a Derek McInnes or an Alex McLeish is unrealistic? No one expects Antonio Conte to manage us but you (like so many others) do us the massive injustice of playing down our draw  and size of the club to justify keeping the wrong person in a job which is quite offensive 

[Ibroxholm 2,291]

3 hours ago, K.A.I said:

That's one of the most ridiculous things I've read on here. You are just assuming that a new manager would take months to get a result or something? even if that would be true ... compared to what? Pedro not getting results anyway? 

Is it ridiculous? It will be at least two or three weeks to get a new manager, probably more if we have to get him released from an existing contract.   After getting rid of McCoist & Warburton, we all know how negotiations can drag on and how disruptive the transition period can be. Even more so, when Pedro has brought in players from afar who are likely to feel more than slightly in limbo when the guy who sold them the ticket is thrown overboard.  A few reverses in that period, along with our already poor start, would finish us before Sept is out.  

'Pedro's not getting results anyway' - so on that basis (3-4 months total, 4-5 games into new season), we get a new manager in. What if the new man doesn't hit the ground running, do we sack him before Xmas on the basis he is not getting the results anyway.  Where does it end with that strategy for taking the club forward - quite ridiculous.

The Board would have to be off their heads to sack the manager after such a short period. I'm no great fan of them but don't think even they would do something so stupid.  

 

[K.A.I 36,183]

9 minutes ago, Ibroxholm said:

Is it ridiculous? It will be at least two or three weeks to get a new manager, probably more if we have to get him released from an existing contract.   After getting rid of McCoist & Warburton, we all know how negotiations can drag on and how disruptive the transition period can be. Even more so, when Pedro has brought in players from afar who are likely to feel more than slightly in limbo when the guy who sold them the ticket is thrown overboard.  A few reverses in that period, along with our already poor start, would finish us before Sept is out.  

'Pedro's not getting results anyway' - so on that basis (3-4 months total, 4-5 games into new season), we get a new manager in. What if the new man doesn't hit the ground running, do we sack him before Xmas on the basis he is not getting the results anyway.  Where does it end with that strategy for taking the club forward - quite ridiculous.

The Board would have to be off their heads to sack the manager after such a short period. I'm no great fan of them but don't think even they would do something so stupid.  

 

So your justification for keeping him in a job is the fact that it will take a few weeks to get someone else in, it looks bad and because of how it dragged on previously? 

This type of opinion is absolutely parallel to how as a support we don't crave success anymore - we've given up the ghost of being successful all in the name of what might be more convenient 

im not surprised though as it's Groundhog Day - was the same lines of defence trotted out when McCoist and Warburton were managers too but it's not any less depressing 

[cr3_bear 15,084]

3 hours ago, Smell the hotdog said:

I don't seem to remember him getting many wins against them saying that I pay very little attention to Scottish football outside Rangers. Happy to be proved wrong on that point.

Does anyone really think Derek McInnes is the person to overthrow Rodgers? I certainly don't.

Am sure he beat them twice at home in deilas last season 

[OnwardsandUpwards 834]

17 minutes ago, K.A.I said:

Wanting a Derek McInnes or an Alex McLeish is unrealistic? No one expects Antonio Conte to manage us but you (like so many others) do us the massive injustice of playing down our draw  and size of the club to justify keeping the wrong person in a job which is quite offensive 

I never ever play down our size of club only the environment we have to ply our football in.If you read my full post instead of picking out a bit of it you will notice I mentioned who would come AND be a big enough name.Do you really think any of the 2 you mentioned will do that because I certainly don't..First couple of bad results they would be hounded as not good enough and the cycle would start anew.For the record I would have preferred McIness to get the chance but wasn't to be.Also for the record if he had the same start Pedro has had I would have posted the exact same as above.

[.Williamson. 84,138]

Pedro shouldn't be our manager. 

The end.

[Courtyard Bear 41,357]

38 minutes ago, K.A.I said:

But we won't even be assured of finish second or winning a cup with Pedro that's what I'm saying so why not make the change and lead a progression where we can then build on that 

id rather make a change and comfortably finish second, maybe a cup and compete in Europa than fight it out for third with no European football with Pedro 

I think we will take second this year maybe not by much. A cup win Im not so sure about, simply because I think we will still have days where we are rank rotten and we haven't learned how to win those games yet. 

[K.A.I 36,183]

3 minutes ago, OnwardsandUpwards said:

I never ever play down our size of club only the environment we have to ply our football in.If you read my full post instead of picking out a bit of it you will notice I mentioned who would come AND be a big enough name.Do you really think any of the 2 you mentioned will do that because I certainly don't..First couple of bad results they would be hounded as not good enough and the cycle would start anew.For the record I would have preferred McIness to get the chance but wasn't to be.Also for the record if he had the same start Pedro has had I would have posted the exact same as above.

We don't need a big name to stabilise us and be an improvement on Pedro mate that's my point 

[Reformation Bear 6,453]

I suppose the jury of the Support is only out for as long as it takes for King and the directors to come to a view of 'keep' or 'remove'.  Or unless the manager himself becomes convinced that his high talk of win, win, win and of producing a much better and more competitive side than last season is not happening, or not likely to happen and he does a Warburton and digs an exit tunnel.    Some of the Support has made its mind up based on Pedro's performance so far and others seem prepared to give him more time and see what happens.  I originally thought he'd do a much better job than Warburton but after the Luxembourg disaster I tuned right out of him, and even further out after the Hibs and Hearts games.  The conclusion I have right now is he is all talk and just talk.  With insufficient managerial leadership and nous to produce a Rangers side this season that is much better and much more competitive than the wretched outcome of last season. 

If he fails to get close enough to the pledge of producing a much better and more competitive side then it seems to me the view of Supporters in general will progressively harden.    That may influence the judges (King and the directors) but ultimately unless Pedro walks of his own volition if he realises the job is beyond him or if he realises he does not command enough of the support of the Support, it will be a bit like last season and it will be King who decides if he stays or goes.  

I think the time for King deciding will be once the first half of the season is done and  2 OF games concluded.    If its looking like a repeat of last season (or worse) then whatever the noises the Support jury is making there is, imo, no way on this planet that King and the directors could look at a worse season than last season being delivered to them by a manager who has been backed to get his first choice players and backed with a ton of time to produce the goods.   

Would it be prudent to wait until the end of the season and put this theory to the test rather than jump on the managerial merry go round prematurely?    It won't be premature if, come Jan 2018, the league points won and the outcome of 2 OF games looks like a near enough repeat of last season (or worse) then the manager's season must surely have come and gone.

I trust the Support jury is out with plenty of sandwiches and liquid refreshment as unless catastrophe happens between now and the end of the first half of the season I think its about then that the judges of King and the directors will be making their decision.    Catastrophe would be ending the year mid table and looking like having to fight hard to avoid a bottom six position and with 2 OF games that showed no substantial improvement on the last OF game at Ibrox. 

Waiting until Jan 2018 or the end of the season before deciding though looks right now to be quite a risk.   Because if he can't generate wins then the season risks becoming one where we have allowed ourselves to be lowered to standards of not even close also rans.   That, imo, would not be acceptable.   If only he had won in Luxembourg and then won a 2nd round European game and we were still in Europe.   That may have taken a bit of the edge off the pressure he has put himself under.   

[RangersScotty9 255]

To be frank seeing the progress Rangers have made from 4 seasons ago is massive. Last season was our first season up into the Scottish Premiership and therefore expected nothing, wasn't really that surprised either that Rangers would lose so many points given how much the team struggled to win games in the Scottish Championship, the points difference between Rangers finishing first to that of who finished second made things look better than what they were and the one off game in the semi-final against Celtic.

Rangers in just one season whilst in a building process have made big difference in terms of the quality, just look at the difference between last season's players to this season, we now have quality defenders in the likes of Alves and Cardoso we could've only have dreamt of having last season, we have quality in Ryan Jack, that type of player was clearly absent from Rangers last season and so it came of no surprise why we were being bossed about in midfield and for a lot of it we were on the back foot, teams like Hearts and Aberdeen done us over.

Sure, you can talk about the poor start to this season, I can somewhat excuse the Hibs result due to the disgraceful refereeing, the game against Hearts the team looks strong but is lacking in the final 3rd and therefore what I'm saying is, I see progress having been made. I don't think we are as far off as some believe, I think if Rangers can sort themselves going forward then it'll be positive. It would be Naive for anyone to say we haven't improved, maybe not results thus far from 3 games which is hard to judge but as a team in terms of quality.

If Rangers fall far behind by Christmas then yes I would support a new manager being brought in, but there's a colossal difference in the quality throughout our squad to what was there last season.

[theiconicman 3,026]

Way I see it:

In Warburton we had a manager with a tactical plan and a game system but he was weak in recruitment and man management. 

In Pedro we have a manager who knows what is expected, has the self belief and nasty streak needed to manage Rangers but seems to lack any game plan or tactics/ coaching. 

Might be harsh and too soon but that's where I'm at. 

Ideally we need someone with the best of them both. 

[kplfishtank 4,669]

7 hours ago, D'Artagnan said:

Alves as opposed to Keirnan

Cardosa as opposed to Wilson

Dorrans instead of Halliday

Jack instead of Holt.

Im not convinced we are as bad as last season Brian

 

Results suggest we are. 

[BLUEDIGNITY 33,749]

One day Pedro will be in the hall of fame!

[K.A.I 36,183]

1 hour ago, theiconicman said:

Way I see it:

In Warburton we had a manager with a tactical plan and a game system but he was weak in recruitment and man management. 

In Pedro we have a manager who knows what is expected, has the self belief and nasty streak needed to manage Rangers but seems to lack any game plan or tactics/ coaching. 

Might be harsh and too soon but that's where I'm at. 

Ideally we need someone with the best of them both. 

I think that's a fair analogy.

As you say, we had one manager who had one thing but not another and now we've got a manager who was the opposites. 

and completely agree we need someone with the best of them both. He can even take what Warburton had and take what Pedro has and get away with being a little bit inferior but if it's a combination of both, he's instantly an improvement on both Warburton and Pedro and would do a job for us.

I'm not even sure if that makes sense - but it made perfect sense in my head even if it reads a bit mental.