Just heard an amazing story about the Groin Brigade

[RFC Eagle 4,888]

Including the Irish Volunteers? Those who originally formed as a pro nationalist paramilitary but went on to join the British Army during World War one? The Irish Volunteers turned into the Original IRA.

You really should look at the full history before making such statements. The 20,000 who fought in the British Army were from the National Volunteers.

'At the start of World War I over 90% joined the National Volunteers and enlisted in the 10th and 16th (Irish) Divisions of the British Army, leaving the Irish Volunteers with a rump estimated at 10-14,000 members.^[3] Volunteers fought for Irish independence in 1916's Easter Rising, and were joined by the Irish Citizen Army, Cumann na mBan and Fianna Éireann to form the Irish Republican Army.^[4]'

British sources reported by early 1916 that the National Volunteers as a movement were "practically dead" or "non-existent".^[15]

My point stands!

[reallyruff 622]

Why do they have to be in opposition?

I'm Scottish and British.........why can't we celebrate both?

Absolutely agree, my response was to a suggestion that we celebrate our Scottishness exclusively.

[norniron1992 61]

You really should look at the full history before making such statements. The 20,000 who fought in the British Army were from the National Volunteers.

'At the start of World War I over 90% joined the National Volunteers and enlisted in the 10th and 16th (Irish) Divisions of the British Army, leaving the Irish Volunteers with a rump estimated at 10-14,000 members.^[3] Volunteers fought for Irish independence in 1916's Easter Rising, and were joined by the Irish Citizen Army, Cumann na mBan and Fianna Éireann to form the Irish Republican Army.^[4]'

British sources reported by early 1916 that the National Volunteers as a movement were "practically dead" or "non-existent".^[15]

My point stands!

They came from an organisation which was set up to fight for Irish Independence, an organisation which would later go onto become the IRA. .

[GOAT 30,449]

Who gives a flying fuck?

[GOAT 30,449]

Too many tarriers on this forum.

[RFC Eagle 4,888]

They came from an organisation which was set up to fight for Irish Independence, an organisation which would later go onto become the IRA. .

They broke away from that organisation. The organisation they formed was finished long before the IRA was formed. Those that formed the IRA had no interest in fighting for anyone but themselves.

The point being the UVF immediately put themselves at the disposal of Kitchener, despite being formed to resist the Home Rule Bill. Trying to equate the UVF and the IRA is patently ridiculous your justification is tenuous to say the least.

[norniron1992 61]

They broke away from that organisation. The organisation they formed was finished long before the IRA was formed. Those that formed the IRA had no interest in fighting for anyone but themselves.

The point being the UVF immediately put themselves at the disposal of Kitchener, despite being formed to resist the Home Rule Bill. Trying to equate the UVF and the IRA is patently ridiculous your justification is tenuous to say the least.

Almost as bad as those who try and say the modern UVF are 'defenders of Ulster' Like the Original UVF where.

The modern UVF are just as bad as their IRA counterparts, nothing but drug dealing, terrorist's who'd kill anyone who'd stand in their way, only difference is one are British while the others want a United Ireland.

[Getstiffed 8,863]

Seriously???

Why dont we sing about the Royal Scots or Gordon Highlanders or the Black Watch? They did the same,brave job but cos they dont come from Ulster it doesnt fit our political agenda.

Total hypocrisy, decrying the mhank fucks for constantly pining for another land.

Fuck,I have to listen to our people starting a song with "I am a loyal Ulsterman" when they clearly are not..............it's absurd!

You do realise NI is part of Great Britain? Hardly another land.

[norniron1992 61]

You do realise NI is part of Great Britain? Hardly another land.

Technically it is another land, being part of the Island of Ireland rather than GB, but I understand what you mean.

[RFC Eagle 4,888]

Almost as bad as those who try and say the modern UVF are 'defenders of Ulster' Like the Original UVF where.

The modern UVF are just as bad as their IRA counterparts, nothing but drug dealing, terrorist's who'd kill anyone who'd stand in their way, only difference is one are British while the others want a United Ireland.

At last we agree on something. The songs aren't about them though.

[Skelf 1,153]

Seriously???

Why dont we sing about the Royal Scots or Gordon Highlanders or the Black Watch? They did the same,brave job but cos they dont come from Ulster it doesnt fit our political agenda.

Total hypocrisy, decrying the mhank fucks for constantly pining for another land.

Fuck,I have to listen to our people starting a song with "I am a loyal Ulsterman" when they clearly are not..............it's absurd!

If someone can write a good song then I'm sure it would get sung

[Skelf 1,153]

Almost as bad as those who try and say the modern UVF are 'defenders of Ulster' Like the Original UVF where.

The modern UVF are just as bad as their IRA counterparts, nothing but drug dealing, terrorist's who'd kill anyone who'd stand in their way, only difference is one are British while the others want a United Ireland.

Ill ask you one thing here. Do you think all those thousands of men who Joined the the UVF UDA (UFF) just turned into killers overnight?

Just before the troubles erupted NI had the lowest crime rate in the UK and no sign of things to come. Then inch by inch these moochers started a war. The people of Ulster were backed into a corner. And came out fighting. It was a different kind of war as you say about the killings. But I'll tell you something. Groups like the UVF UDA and more so UFF took the war straight to them and vowed for every Protestant killed a catholic will be killed. Rightly or wrongly this forced the IRA on the backfoot. They then tried to hide their killers among their political wing (sinn fein IRA ) but there was no hiding place.

I genuinely believe without the UVF UDA and UFF Ulster may have been lost to the South

[norniron1992 61]

Ill ask you one thing here. Do you think all those thousands of men who Joined the the UVF UDA (UFF) just turned into killers overnight?

Clearly not, some joined because they believed it was the correct thing at the time, most were not involved with serious crimes, murder etc.

Just before the troubles erupted NI had the lowest crime rate in the UK and no sign of things to come. Then inch by inch these moochers started a war. The people of Ulster were backed into a corner. And came out fighting. It was a different kind of war as you say about the killings. But I'll tell you something. Groups like the UVF UDA and more so UFF took the war straight to them and vowed for every Protestant killed a catholic will be killed. Rightly or wrongly this forced the IRA on the backfoot. They then tried to hide their killers among their political wing (sinn fein IRA ) but there was no hiding place.

It's extremely easy to simply say that they were defending their own communities by going out and retaliating, but by killing innocent Catholics, much like the Shankill Butchers did, much like Adair's C Company did and bombing Cities and towns such as Dublin and Monaghan make them no better than any Republican Paramilitary. You bring up about Sinn Fein hiding killers amongst their ranks, whilst that is undeniable the reason why those who have committed crimes such as murder aren't involved in mainstream Unionism is because, thankfully, the Unionist community accept them for what they are, terrorists, drug dealers and criminals.

Also, if you think it was the Loyalist paramilitaries who forced the IRA onto the backfoot then I simply can't believe you, they were riddled with informants during the 90's, from what I have been told, it was believed that up to 25% of IRA members where British informants leading up to the GFA.

I genuinely believe without the UVF UDA and UFF Ulster may have been lost to the South

I genuinely believe that without the UVF, UDA and the UFF that Northern Ireland wouldn't have been lost to the Irish Republic, and that Northern Ireland, in the Unionist communities anyway, would be a lot better of than they are now. Look at the poverty in working class Unionist area's, something which I believe those paramilitaries have helped advance. Sinn Fein, despite my great hatred for them have acknowledged that the working class vote is one of the most vital area's, why do you think SF are so big? Why did they take over the SDLP in elections? Because they use the working class vote, the get them out and voting while the Unionist parties are happy looking after those who make up the party, the middle class vote.

The fact is, and it is enshrined in the GFA, the Union has never been stronger in Northern Ireland, it is now written into international law that unless there is a significant number who would want a United Ireland then there will not be a border poll. Catholics now feel that the Union works for them, and that has nothing to do with the actions of any sort of paramilitary force.

Also, @ RFC Eagle, I never said the songs were about the current UVF, but, I don't believe they are songs that should be sung at football, I'd rather sing about Rangers players, the club itself etc.

[somerset bear 34 86]

Ill ask you one thing here. Do you think all those thousands of men who Joined the the UVF UDA (UFF) just turned into killers overnight?

Just before the troubles erupted NI had the lowest crime rate in the UK and no sign of things to come. Then inch by inch these moochers started a war. The people of Ulster were backed into a corner. And came out fighting. It was a different kind of war as you say about the killings. But I'll tell you something. Groups like the UVF UDA and more so UFF took the war straight to them and vowed for every Protestant killed a catholic will be killed. Rightly or wrongly this forced the IRA on the backfoot. They then tried to hide their killers among their political wing (sinn fein IRA ) but there was no hiding place.

I genuinely believe without the UVF UDA and UFF Ulster may have been lost to the South

What a load of crap. When these young men joined up in the early seventies they might have had the right reasons for it but the organisations soon turned in to criminal gangs which terrorised their own communities as much as another community. These groups have almost killed as many protestants as Catholics and they control their areas with fear and intimidation. They pump their young full of drugs and tax any business in the area for so called protection.

When I grew up in Belfast I once idealised them but when I got older I saw how they opperated and it made me sick. I remember being in a pub once and I was playing pool. This one UDA scum bag walked in and told me to get off the table cause it was his. I continued to play and ignored him. He then told me I had ten seconds to get off the table or id be shot. Anyway after realising I was on a losing wicket I left the table. About an hour later this prick got in to an argument with his girlfriend and punched her in the face and kicked her in the head. Not one person, including myself helped her cause we would all have paid a price for our so called disloyalty.

That guy was not a one off, there were plenty like him. He died a few years later and the streets were filled with people respecting his passing but I know for a fact that a lot of the so called mourners were bloody delighted the guy died and he wasn't defending his community when his time went either, just pumping himself full of drugs.

Honestly we cant compare this bunch of thugs to the defenders of the past.

[somerset bear 34 86]

Clearly not, some joined because they believed it was the correct thing at the time, most were not involved with serious crimes, murder etc.

It's extremely easy to simply say that they were defending their own communities by going out and retaliating, but by killing innocent Catholics, much like the Shankill Butchers did, much like Adair's C Company did and bombing Cities and towns such as Dublin and Monaghan make them no better than any Republican Paramilitary. You bring up about Sinn Fein hiding killers amongst their ranks, whilst that is undeniable the reason why those who have committed crimes such as murder aren't involved in mainstream Unionism is because, thankfully, the Unionist community accept them for what they are, terrorists, drug dealers and criminals.

Also, if you think it was the Loyalist paramilitaries who forced the IRA onto the backfoot then I simply can't believe you, they were riddled with informants during the 90's, from what I have been told, it was believed that up to 25% of IRA members where British informants leading up to the GFA.

I genuinely believe that without the UVF, UDA and the UFF that Northern Ireland wouldn't have been lost to the Irish Republic, and that Northern Ireland, in the Unionist communities anyway, would be a lot better of than they are now. Look at the poverty in working class Unionist area's, something which I believe those paramilitaries have helped advance. Sinn Fein, despite my great hatred for them have acknowledged that the working class vote is one of the most vital area's, why do you think SF are so big? Why did they take over the SDLP in elections? Because they use the working class vote, the get them out and voting while the Unionist parties are happy looking after those who make up the party, the middle class vote.

The fact is, and it is enshrined in the GFA, the Union has never been stronger in Northern Ireland, it is now written into international law that unless there is a significant number who would want a United Ireland then there will not be a border poll. Catholics now feel that the Union works for them, and that has nothing to do with the actions of any sort of paramilitary force.

Also, @ RFC Eagle, I never said the songs were about the current UVF, but, I don't believe they are songs that should be sung at football, I'd rather sing about Rangers players, the club itself etc.

Your so right. There is a reason why the loyalist paramilitaries aren't represented at stormount and its because the unionist community know they are gangsters. This has lead to the protestant working class being marginalized in the political picture. This unfortunately has lead to the UVF and UDA reamerging and try and latch on to the parades issue and flag protests. Putting off mainstream unionists from supporting the protests

[Skelf 1,153]

. This unfortunately has lead to the UVF and UDA reamerging and try and latch on to the parades issue and flag protests. Putting off mainstream unionists from supporting the protests

That's not entirely true. I know the people who are organising these events and in no way linked the the paramilitarys

Ill respond to your other posts tomorrow. Getting late

[somerset bear 34 86]

That's not entirely true. I know the people who are organising these events and in no way linked the the paramilitarys

Ill respond to your other posts tomorrow. Getting late

I know all the protesters aren't paramilitaries, just saying that they are latching on to the issues. As one ex UDA Leader said " im a business man not a loyalist, loyalism doesn't pay the bills "

[RFC Eagle 4,888]

Clearly not, some joined because they believed it was the correct thing at the time, most were not involved with serious crimes, murder etc.

It's extremely easy to simply say that they were defending their own communities by going out and retaliating, but by killing innocent Catholics, much like the Shankill Butchers did, much like Adair's C Company did and bombing Cities and towns such as Dublin and Monaghan make them no better than any Republican Paramilitary. You bring up about Sinn Fein hiding killers amongst their ranks, whilst that is undeniable the reason why those who have committed crimes such as murder aren't involved in mainstream Unionism is because, thankfully, the Unionist community accept them for what they are, terrorists, drug dealers and criminals.

Also, if you think it was the Loyalist paramilitaries who forced the IRA onto the backfoot then I simply can't believe you, they were riddled with informants during the 90's, from what I have been told, it was believed that up to 25% of IRA members where British informants leading up to the GFA.

I genuinely believe that without the UVF, UDA and the UFF that Northern Ireland wouldn't have been lost to the Irish Republic, and that Northern Ireland, in the Unionist communities anyway, would be a lot better of than they are now. Look at the poverty in working class Unionist area's, something which I believe those paramilitaries have helped advance. Sinn Fein, despite my great hatred for them have acknowledged that the working class vote is one of the most vital area's, why do you think SF are so big? Why did they take over the SDLP in elections? Because they use the working class vote, the get them out and voting while the Unionist parties are happy looking after those who make up the party, the middle class vote.

The fact is, and it is enshrined in the GFA, the Union has never been stronger in Northern Ireland, it is now written into international law that unless there is a significant number who would want a United Ireland then there will not be a border poll. Catholics now feel that the Union works for them, and that has nothing to do with the actions of any sort of paramilitary force.

Also, @ RFC Eagle, I never said the songs were about the current UVF, but, I don't believe they are songs that should be sung at football, I'd rather sing about Rangers players, the club itself etc.

So why bring the modern UVF into the discussion? Is it because you realised you'd lost the point you originally made?

So no football fan should sing songs unrelated to their club? Football would be a much poorer place without Stoke fans singing Delilah, Swansea singing Land of my Fathers etc etc. Fathers Advice, Coming Down the Road etc are part of the Rangers songbook. If you don't like them don't sing them, just don't use spurious and innaccurate information to justify your position.

[norniron1992 61]

So why bring the modern UVF into the discussion? Is it because you realised you'd lost the point you originally made?

So no football fan should sing songs unrelated to their club? Football would be a much poorer place without Stoke fans singing Delilah, Swansea singing Land of my Fathers etc etc. Fathers Advice, Coming Down the Road etc are part of the Rangers songbook. If you don't like them don't sing them, just don't use spurious and innaccurate information to justify your position.

The point about the modern UVF was brought up before I even posted.

And songs about fighting the IRA and Battles in Ireland 300+ years ago are different than the Welsh Sporting Anthem, I just don't understand how loyalist songs can some how be part of the Rangers song book, if I was a player I'd rather hear the fans sing Four men had a dream than The Sash.

[RFC Eagle 4,888]

The point about the modern UVF was brought up before I even posted.

And songs about fighting the IRA and Battles in Ireland 300+ years ago are different than the Welsh Sporting Anthem, I just don't understand how loyalist songs can some how be part of the Rangers song book, if I was a player I'd rather hear the fans sing Four men had a dream than The Sash.

'Its warring defenders, so gallant and brave,

For freedom their life's blood they gave'

Guess where these words (translated here) appear? Not that different at all is it? I'm sure our players were more than complimentary during and after our trip to Sheffield (you are aware of the playlist there?), do you really think they worry about the words being sung rather than the atmosphere?

[EatDolphins 5,357]

I’m a little pissed so please bear with me. See if this makes any sense…

I’ve just spent a lengthy train journey in the company of two Army guys of some sort; they didn’t specify and I didn't ask. One was a Bear, the other a Tim. Both were pissed when they boarded and drank throughout. As drunks do, they forced drink on me; not exactly a tough sell, I know! They argued loudly about football for a bit but eventually they mellowed and both talked at length to me, talking over each other constantly. What became clear was they were both pretty much of the same view, namely that the Celtic support is being torn apart by battles between factions.

So much was said, I’m struggling to remember it all. A lot of stuff was repeated endlessly, other stuff was implied, but from what I can gather:

- The trouble at Brentford kicked off in a pub when Lee Rigby chants were started by RIRA supporters. Some other fans, including Celtic-supporting squaddies, objected strenuously and some chanters took hidings.

- ǝpɐbıɹq uǝǝɹb ǝɥʇ is made up of fanatics who are far more concerned about hardline Republicanism than the team. Obviously

- Regular fans are becoming increasingly tired of the GB and suspect the GB has been infiltrated by outsiders; "full of h***", as the Tim put it.

- Lawwell fucking hates the GB and would ban them all tomorrow. Bollocks, they're his core support (soon to be only support)

- Lennon is the opposite, he sympathises, but he’s under strict orders not to be publicly supportive or he’ll be fired. How could anyone but the two rats possibly know that?

- According to these guys, some security service (they didn’t specify which although I asked) is closely monitoring and actually has a member inside the GB! I doubt two regular squaddies would be privvy to information like this and if they were they sure as shit wouldn't tell a stranger on a train.

- They mentioned a journalist who is on the GB’s list of hated enemies; I took this to be ill Phil but they’d never heard of him.

I’ve no idea if any of this is true but by fuck, it was riveting stuff. I can’t really see why two forty-something servicemen would make this stuff up so I suspect there’s something in this. Genuinely amazing to hear all this stuff on a train full of oblivious passengers.

If I remember any more later tonight or tomorrow, I’ll post it.

[WilliamFyfe 1,438]

Interesting stuff OP

[linfield1690 4,249]

.

[papaguy51 912]

One works on the turnstiles at Ibrox.

[General Custer 516]

One of my best friends sits near the GB in Torbet Towers, says at first they were appreciated but now there's a lot of bad feeling with them and the other supporters big time, fisty cuffs verbals and the like.