Title Stripping Can't Happen

[Spectre 1,663]

I know you're clued up on law BNB but it should even be obvious to average Joe's like myself that title stripping can't happen, it's absurd that it even came up in the first place

The worrying thing is the people that sit on the important seats in Scottish football are all Rangers-haters and will keep on pushing.

Where do you stop? What about all the points we took off relegated clubs, clubs trying to finish 3rd place to qualify for europe, every cup competition we were ever in during the time in question as well.

They don't have a leg to stand on

I wouldn't find it that absurd if there was something in the rules allowing for it, there isn't though. They had their first commission on the side letters whilst an appeal by HMRC was still in the works for the simple reason that the only rule that was breached, whether we won the appeal or not, was our failure to declare the side contracts to the football authorities. We were guilty, we faced our punishment and it's over, even now, as it stands, with HMRC winning the tax case, there is no further breach of any rule in place at the time and they need there to be one of them before even beginning to look at what punishments are permitted.

[JCDBigBear 10,836]

posted this yesterday around 5 in the Celtic statement topic:

After some thought, in providing this statement I think celtic are actually throwing in the towel in this and the statement is just a sop to their fans and here is why:

They hark back to the LNS commission ruling; however these rulings cannot be overturned :

Rule G4 states:-

A Commission shall comprise not less than three members of the Panel and any decision of a majority of them, subject to the rights of appeal in Rules G8, G9 and G10, shall be final and binding.

· The SPL cannot appeal the decision re the side letter as were we actually found guilty of non disclosure of the side letters.

· They cannot appeal against the decision that despite the deliberate non-disclosure there was no playing of ineligible players because the SPL case did not invite the Commission to find that ineligible players were fielded. If they did not ask the Commission to make such a finding, then the SPL cannot appeal against that decision.

Now G8: Any Club or person who or which is the subject of an adverse determination by the Board or a Commission may, unless the Rules expressly state otherwise and provided the SFA Articles provide for a right of appeal to the SFA, appeal against such determination in accordance with the SFA Articles.

However the SPL actually won they would be appealing against there own victory and Regan is himself quoted as saying at the time of the result lets draw a line under the matter.

In summary the SPL does not have anything against which to appeal and doesnt have the heart to bother.

I believe that Celtic and their lawyers know this only to well.

A pretty decent summation. The SPL Commission stated that the players were all properly registered with the SFA. See this extract:

we are satisfied that the registration of the Specified Players with the

SPL was valid from the outset, and accordingly that they were eligible to play in official

matches. There was therefore no breach of SPL Rule D1.11.

[89] For these reasons we are not satisfied that any breach of the Rules has been established in

terms of Issue 3©, taken in conjunction with the concluding words of Issue 3(b) quoted above.

This is an important finding, as it means that there was no instance shown of Rangers FC

fielding an ineligible player.

Our issues with HMRC for the period in question are not the business of the SFA or SPFL. The Commission was clear in its ruling about any alleged competitive advantage.:

6) Rangers FC did not gain any unfair competitive advantage from the contraventions of

the SPL Rules in failing to make proper disclosure of the side-letter arrangements, nor

did the non-disclosure have the effect that any of the registered players were ineligible

to play, and for this and other reasons no sporting sanction or penalty should be

imposed upon Rangers FC;

The most important part is this:

Mr McKenzie stated expressly that for all purposes of this Commission’s Inquiry and Determination the SPL accepted that decision as it stood, without regard to any possible appeal by HMRC.

Mr McKenzie stated expressly that for all purposes of this Commission’s Inquiry and Determination the SPL accepted that decision as it stood, without regard to any possible appeal by HMRC.

[bluenoz 31,181]

It was never going to happen. Just media/fan stirring. Besides, pretty sure BDO will appeal and confident in a positive Supreme Court ruling which certainly won't be ruled on ' common sense '.

[285miles 515]

The bigger picture is the crisis in world football governance with FIFA and UEFA engulfed in corruption scandals.

The Scottish football authorities response ?

Concentrate all our efforts on Rangers

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

The article mentioned above:

CELTIC last night waded into the Rangers EBT row – claiming they remain ‘surprised’ the Ibrox club was not found guilty of gaining a sporting advantage by using the tax avoidance scheme.

The Parkhead club issued a statement which stopped short of calling for the five titles won when EBTs were used at Ibrox from 2001-2010 to be wiped from the record books.

But Celtic made clear that they were unhappy with the verdict of the Lord Nimmo Smith Commission into the matter two years ago – and remain so now.

An HMRC appeal victory against Rangers in the Court of Session last week has brought the EBT issue back into focus – and although a Hampden source last night insisted there was no mechanism for the club to be ‘tried’ again, having gone through the courts in 2013, Celtic’s intervention will do nothing to calm a situation already inflamed by Rangers chairman Dave King’s threat to take to court any club trying to have their titles removed.

The Parkhead statement read: “We are aware of last week’s Court of Session ruling, which we note is subject to potential appeal.

“Celtic’s position on this issue is consistent – that this remains a matter for the courts of law and also the Scottish football authorities whose rules are intended to uphold sporting integrity.

“In 2013, we expressed surprise – shared by many observers and supporters of the game - over the findings of the SPL Commission that no competitive or sporting advantage had resulted. That remains our view.”

Jeff Holmes/PA Wire

Match day at Celtic Park

But according to a source close to the situation at Hampden, Rangers cannot be stripped of the titles they won during the EBT years – because they’ve already been found guilty of failing to disclose side letters issued to players who used the tax avoidance scheme and were fined £250,000 by the Lord Nimmo Smith Commission in December 2013.

It has been claimed that there is no mechanism to allow a ‘retrial’ in the wake of last week’s victory for HMRC in relation to the Employment Benefit Trust scheme operated by Sir David Murray between 2001 and 2010 – a period in which five titles were won by the Ibrox club.

Last week’s decision, which could yet be the subject of an appeal by liquidators BDO before December 2 and could see the saga drag on for months or years, sparked an outcry on social media for Rangers to be stripped of those championships – and a furious response from new current Ibrox regime, which claims it is ready to go to war to defend its history.

But the source told Record Sport: “There is no need for Rangers to take such a stance and there is no point in people calling for titles to be stripped because it can’t happen.

“There is no legal vehicle for it to happen. They’ve already been found guilty – it’s double jeopardy, if you like. They can’t be re-tried for something they’ve been found guilty of.

“So many people on both sides of this argument are speaking without knowing the facts or the legalities.

“And on top of that, it is my understanding that there is little appetite from other clubs to strip Rangers of their titles, even if they are not coming out and saying it.”

Lord Nimmo Smith

The independent Nimmo Smith Commission, appointed by the SPL at the time, found that Rangers gained ‘no competitive advantage’ by failing to disclose the side-letters. It stated: “Rangers FC did not gain any unfair competitive advantage from the contraventions of the SPL rules in failing to make proper disclosure of the side-letter arrangements, nor did the non-disclosure have the effect that any of the registered players were ineligible to play, and for this and other reasons no sporting sanction or penalty should be imposed on Rangers.

“Although the payments in this case were not themselves irregular and were not in breach of SPL or SFA rules, the scale and extent of the proven contraventions of the disclosure rules require a substantial penalty to be imposed.

“In all the circumstances the commission has imposed a fine of £250,000 on Oldco.”

The SPL, now the SPFL, claim that Rangers Newco agreed to take on all football debts, including that fine but the Ibrox club have denied that and have taken the case to arbritation. The matter is expected to be resolved in a number of weeks but if Rangers lose, it will cost the club £400,000 when legal fees have been added.

But irrespective of the outcome, it is the view in Hampden’s corridors of power that no titles can be or will be at risk.

[dummiesoot 16,080]

If someone on the inside is talking to the press, why don't they just issue a statement? Surely timing cannot be an issue, just tell the halfwits "already been punished, keep you hands off, sellik keep your mouth shut" easy peasy

[B1872 21,014]

Stupidly had radio Scotland on in the car and there are 5 journalists on and everyone of them are saying we should be stripped titles. They're all very anti Rangers I may add but didn't quite know how they all were. English, Hugh someone, some cunt called Steven, the worst is possibly someone I don't know his name saying that it's Aberdeen and Dundee United fans not C****c fans that are pushing it. Also said that we were born as a club in 2012. The only reason they won't take titles is because they're scared. According to these guys the fans in Scottish football want titles stripped. Fucking horrible cunts!!!!!

Edit: One is Hugh McDonald!

[Albertz 78 918]

It's not been mentioned much by the mHedia in Scotland but why no outrage over Hearts dodging tax on the loan signings from Kaunas?

They were taken to a tribunal and fined £1.7m by HMRC, the club then agreed to a payment plan to stop a winding up order knowing full well they were heading for admin and a CVA meaning that debt was never paid.

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/hearts/204009-hearts-settle-big-tax-case-with-hmrc-to-pay-15m-bill-over-three-years/

That mob cheated Rangers out a champions league spot by not paying tax on the loan signings from Lith but they have no baying mob wanting the Scottish cup they won a few years back stripped.

One rule for Rangers?

[eejay the dj 31,964]

Stupidly had radio Scotland on in the car and there are 5 journalists on and everyone of them are saying we should be stripped titles. They're all very anti Rangers I may add but didn't quite know how they all were. English, Hugh someone, some cunt called Steven, the worst is possibly someone I don't know his name saying that it's Aberdeen and Dundee United fans not C****c fans that are pushing it. Also said that we were born as a club in 2012. The only reason they won't take titles is because they're scared. According to these guys the fans in Scottish football want titles stripped. Fucking horrible cunts!!!!!

Edit: One is Hugh McDonald!

Mate you are a good poster but you are RMs no 1 panic merchant

[eejay the dj 31,964]

Stupidly had radio Scotland on in the car and there are 5 journalists on and everyone of them are saying we should be stripped titles. They're all very anti Rangers I may add but didn't quite know how they all were. English, Hugh someone, some cunt called Steven, the worst is possibly someone I don't know his name saying that it's Aberdeen and Dundee United fans not C****c fans that are pushing it. Also said that we were born as a club in 2012. The only reason they won't take titles is because they're scared. According to these guys the fans in Scottish football want titles stripped. Fucking horrible cunts!!!!!

Edit: One is Hugh McDonald!

How Derek Ferguson and anyone with a connection can work with this shower of lowlife scum, without planting the head into their faces is well beyond me

[Dutchy 1,200]

It was never going to happen. Just media/fan stirring. Besides, pretty sure BDO will appeal and confident in a positive Supreme Court ruling which certainly won't be ruled on ' common sense '.

And they are really clutching at straws on an appeal. Some cunt said on the radio the other night, or maybe it was yesterday that the appeal will be very expensive so will probably not happen.

Talk about fantasy and dreaming! Where's the common sense in that statement?

Bunch of anti-Rangers arseholes.

[cushynumber 25,178]

The appeal is nothing to do with expense. There is simply nothing to appeal.

[B1872 21,014]

Mate you are a good poster but you are RMs no 1 panic merchant

Fuck I know mate but the picture they counts were painting was pretty bleak! I should've known better thinking I'd be listening to anything other than Rangers haters obsessing over our club.

[gazza27 15,331]

Mate you are a good poster but you are RMs no 1 panic merchant

He's a bellend

[B1872 21,014]

He's a bellend

Fuck up ya roaster and stop stalking me!

[lutonblue 1,974]

Fuck up ya roaster and stop stalking me!

thought you two were mates

[allgers 735]

I know that some think we can be singled out for retrospective punishments but this is not the case, the only organization that can get away with that is HMRC.

[cushynumber 25,178]

I know that some think we can be singled out for retrospective punishments but this is not the case, the only organization that can get away with that is HMRC.

thats backdated rather that retrospective