Whatever happened to the "TBB Liaison Committee"?

[Thewhitesettler 2,711]

12 hours ago, Bluepeter9 said:

'Away and fuck myself' -  

cool debating style - nearly made me change my mind there and start going to church, ( CosS of course) while whistling TBBs and wishing I had voted to stay in the union! 

Nearly! 

What's wrong with the Free Church of Scotland mate?

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

6 hours ago, theiconicman said:

So poor police officers get abuse so the law was brought in to save their sensibilities?

Nonsense. 

The law was brought in to tackle AntiCatholic hate crime given the Roman Church commented/ Celtic commented and statistics were provide to show how victimised they were. 

You may choose to see equality in the law, I think you're blind. 

And yet you ignore the bit that more  arrests were at Celtic park, alcohol fuelled and aimed at police officers probably trying to calm some yob down. I guess that's the problem with statistics - interpretation 

[theiconicman 2,991]

2 hours ago, Bluepeter9 said:

And yet you ignore the bit that more  arrests were at Celtic park, alcohol fuelled and aimed at police officers probably trying to calm some yob down. I guess that's the problem with statistics - interpretation 

The statistic that the Record helpfully dispelled by quoting Celtic's stance of it mainly being the visitors?

[RFCRobertson 11,778]

22 hours ago, K.A.I said:

Police Scotland are out to get Rangers fans - care to tell me why out of the 68 or so that's been arrested since the cup final approx 50 are Rangers fans 

One of the away games last season, it was a late kick off there was some amount of cameras on the streets. 

and another thing, look at the policing that went on at the RR game where we could've won the league and when we did win the league. Even at the old firm. 

I remember at a game, I was sitting in the Jardine stand right in the corner next to Copland. Went to the toilet and passed by 6 cops. At the SC final passed by about 4 groups of 3 on the way back to my seat during the second half. 

They definitely have us as a higher priority for policing. and the only reason I can put it down to is because we push British values so much. We support armed forces day, hold a moment of silence, fly the union jack (I noticed vs Motherwell there wasn't a saltire actually). And that doesn't sit well with the bitches idea of her scotland. 

[RFCRobertson 11,778]

20 hours ago, BF2 said:

You've just stated that h*n is just as offensive as fenian.  So why, in the eyes or your bigoted political party, are songs about h*ns ok but songs about fenians aren't?

Funnily enough H** is a proper derogatory term for Germans, used in World War 1 and 2 (in addition to Kraut).In contrast, Fenian has political backgrounds and are predecessors to the IRA. (both groups exercised revolutionary acts against the British).

So all 'n' all the SNP are saying "don't bash Political groups that we may or may not like". It's not like they go to pubs where "up the RA" is sung in full force or that  

but if your German and happen to be a Rangers man (love ya Alberts) than you'll have to grin and bear while possibly being reminded of what your ancestors did in the world wars. 

[One Jock Wallace 858]

Here are extracts of my response from FoCUS (I have highlighted what I consider important to this debate) :

"In answering your enquiry I must make clear that this is based upon my experience of working with the Football Coordination Unit for Scotland (FoCUS) over the past few years and does not represent an official corporate Police Scotland response.

Police Scotland has no list of 'banned songs'.  However, we are aware of the types of behaviour which have resulted in conviction at court and these include:

·         derogatory comments towards another religion or religious figures;

·         derogatory comments towards another group which is perceived to be affiliated to a particular religion;

·         racist comments (often towards players);

·         threatening words and / or actions;

·         songs which show support for terrorism / terrorist groups

In terms of which version of the Billy Boys may or may not be sung, I am not prepared to endorse any song which sings about being up to one's knees in anyone's blood, irrespective of whose blood it is or whether or not the lyrics could result in criminal charges.  FoCUS has always tried to promote the message that supporters should positively support their team and should steer clear of material which is offensive or distasteful.  Given the range of football songs which do not involve inappropriate lyrics, there should be sufficient choice to keep all supporters engaged with generating a good atmosphere at games whilst avoiding the risk of prosecution.

In relation to singing of the Billy Boys, omission of the reference to 'Fenian blood' may indeed mean that individuals do not face action by police.  However, this very much depends on what, if anything, these words are replaced by.  If you simply missed that line out, which many individuals do, then provided you haven't inserted something else which is offensive or threatening into the lyrics (or associated gestures etc), I don't believe that you will have committed an offence. 

Where alternative lyrics including offensive or threatening words are used individuals may still face arrest and prosecution.  Ultimately the test of what is criminal is a decision for the Court and as the full range of alternative lyrics have not been tested through the Courts yet I prefer to advise individuals to steer clear of anything which could be deemed offensive or threatening, hence my original response.  In a modern progressive democracy I don't think celebrating being up to one's knees in the opposition's blood is acceptable under any circumstances.

In relation to the legislation being applied, I can assure you that we have put great effort into educating our colleagues and working with external partner agencies to ensure policing at football is consistent wherever it takes place in Scotland.  What you see and hear in the media may not always be reflective of the work that is ongoing within Police Scotland, sometimes due to legal constraints and sometimes due to media outlets / social media highlighting some aspects while not highlighting others.  Over the past few years I've been accused by fans from both sides of the Old Firm of unfairly targeting them while allowing the 'other side' to offend with impunity and I would argue that both are wrong in that interpretation as my team has always simply looked at the behaviour, not the club supported, and if we believe the behaviour to be criminal, we will take action.    

In relation to use of the word 'H**' this has been discussed with some Rangers FC supporter representatives (Fans Working Group) and at their request I contacted Crown Office for guidance.  Our current guidance is that in the absence of other aggravating behaviour, use of this word on its own would not support criminal charges". 

So I think its quite clear that the tune is not banned and its just a case of changing the lyrics to something non offensive or threatening. It may then be tested in court but I would suggest it wouldn`t get that far as it would be a very weak case.

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

3 hours ago, theiconicman said:

The statistic that the Record helpfully dispelled by quoting Celtic's stance of it mainly being the visitors?

Well they would say that! That type of quote is of the 'minority' did it variety - shite. 

And NONE of it shows conspiracy or that it was set up to get us - that is the paranoia talking 

 

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

3 hours ago, One Jock Wallace said:

Here are extracts of my response from FoCUS (I have highlighted what I consider important to this debate) :

"In answering your enquiry I must make clear that this is based upon my experience of working with the Football Coordination Unit for Scotland (FoCUS) over the past few years and does not represent an official corporate Police Scotland response.

Police Scotland has no list of 'banned songs'.  However, we are aware of the types of behaviour which have resulted in conviction at court and these include:

·         derogatory comments towards another religion or religious figures;

·         derogatory comments towards another group which is perceived to be affiliated to a particular religion;

·         racist comments (often towards players);

·         threatening words and / or actions;

·         songs which show support for terrorism / terrorist groups

In terms of which version of the Billy Boys may or may not be sung, I am not prepared to endorse any song which sings about being up to one's knees in anyone's blood, irrespective of whose blood it is or whether or not the lyrics could result in criminal charges.  FoCUS has always tried to promote the message that supporters should positively support their team and should steer clear of material which is offensive or distasteful.  Given the range of football songs which do not involve inappropriate lyrics, there should be sufficient choice to keep all supporters engaged with generating a good atmosphere at games whilst avoiding the risk of prosecution.

In relation to singing of the Billy Boys, omission of the reference to 'Fenian blood' may indeed mean that individuals do not face action by police.  However, this very much depends on what, if anything, these words are replaced by.  If you simply missed that line out, which many individuals do, then provided you haven't inserted something else which is offensive or threatening into the lyrics (or associated gestures etc), I don't believe that you will have committed an offence. 

Where alternative lyrics including offensive or threatening words are used individuals may still face arrest and prosecution.  Ultimately the test of what is criminal is a decision for the Court and as the full range of alternative lyrics have not been tested through the Courts yet I prefer to advise individuals to steer clear of anything which could be deemed offensive or threatening, hence my original response.  In a modern progressive democracy I don't think celebrating being up to one's knees in the opposition's blood is acceptable under any circumstances.

In relation to the legislation being applied, I can assure you that we have put great effort into educating our colleagues and working with external partner agencies to ensure policing at football is consistent wherever it takes place in Scotland.  What you see and hear in the media may not always be reflective of the work that is ongoing within Police Scotland, sometimes due to legal constraints and sometimes due to media outlets / social media highlighting some aspects while not highlighting others.  Over the past few years I've been accused by fans from both sides of the Old Firm of unfairly targeting them while allowing the 'other side' to offend with impunity and I would argue that both are wrong in that interpretation as my team has always simply looked at the behaviour, not the club supported, and if we believe the behaviour to be criminal, we will take action.    

In relation to use of the word 'H**' this has been discussed with some Rangers FC supporter representatives (Fans Working Group) and at their request I contacted Crown Office for guidance.  Our current guidance is that in the absence of other aggravating behaviour, use of this word on its own would not support criminal charges". 

So I think its quite clear that the tune is not banned and its just a case of changing the lyrics to something non offensive or threatening. It may then be tested in court but I would suggest it wouldn`t get that far as it would be a very weak case.

A lot of sense in that letter - it won't appease the paranoids but it's pretty clear 

[theiconicman 2,991]

It's pretty clear BP9 that they say one thing and do something completely different. 

Many clubs sing he song being up to their knees in rival team blood but despite a clear letter saying it would result in arrest, it doesn't happen. 

So clear bias being shown and therefore dismissing your paranoia taunt. 

[graeme_4 34,536]

Just read through this.

Not sure how anyone can argue that the legislation was not brought in to target Rangers fans, it clearly was. Rushed through to appease a bandwagon with a clear anti-Rangers agenda. Unfortunately for Celtic fans, the scrutiny of our behaviour and song list that they campaigned for has inadvertently been turned to them also (although not to the same degree, particularly by Scottish media). 

Police Scotland (or at least a large proportion of their staff) have a clear anti-Rangers agenda - whether this is as a result of a clear directive from senior officials, or as a result of them having a pre-existing hatred for Rangers I am not sure - although I'd put money on option 1.

That said, it's clear the club don't want TBBs being sung, and it's clear people have been lifted and convicted for it (or similar verbiage). 

Fans need to be smart about it. Don't put yourself or the club at risk. Sing it if you like, but don't sing the offensive word / line, cover your mouth with a scarf or do it where you can't be seen / reached. Don't give police Scotland the opportunity that they want. 

I'm not too well versed on the stance of our range of supporters groups, but funds would be well spent on a lawyer to determine (and argue) what is permitted / illegal. 

[Copland bear 7,966]

21 hours ago, Bluepeter9 said:

'Away and fuck myself' -  

cool debating style - nearly made me change my mind there and start going to church, ( CosS of course) while whistling TBBs and wishing I had voted to stay in the union! 

Nearly! 

Debating ? Why would I even debate with a walloper like you? 

Now away and spoute your pish elsewhere as the SNP and any cunt  that supports them  are scum.

 

 

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

25 minutes ago, Copland bear said:

Debating ? Why would I even debate with a walloper like you? 

Now away and spoute your pish elsewhere as the SNP and any cunt  that supports them  are scum.

 

 

Superb rejoinder - full of wit and demonstrating your age, IQ and emotional maturity and none of those are reaching higher than 13. 

[graeme_4 34,536]

3 minutes ago, Bluepeter9 said:

Superb rejoinder - full of wit and demonstrating your age, IQ and emotional maturity and none of those are reaching higher than 13. 

Hater. And personal abuse. 

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

Just now, graeme_4 said:

Hater. And personal abuse. 

I know - I cracked under the pressure of the chaps wit! 

[Copland bear 7,966]

 

1 hour ago, Bluepeter9 said:

Superb rejoinder - full of wit and demonstrating your age, IQ and emotional maturity and none of those are reaching higher than 13. 

This coming from a nationalist? And as for the chaps wit?    Really away and fuck yourself, seriously you must keep your mouth shut at the games as you show your traitor like views then come out with wise cracks about IQ's your gonna land yourself in bother.

And do you have a problem with the Billy boys ? if so what ? Not the club position and we will get hammered pish, what is your point of view on it?

As I will gladly point you in the right direction regarding this song considering I was a local unlike cunts like you who do not even know where Bridgeton even is.

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

1 hour ago, Copland bear said:

 

This coming from a nationalist? And as for the chaps wit?    Really away and fuck yourself, seriously you must keep your mouth shut at the games as you show your traitor like views then come out with wise cracks about IQ's your gonna land yourself in bother.

And do you have a problem with the Billy boys ? if so what ? Not the club position and we will get hammered pish, what is your point of view on it?

As I will gladly point you in the right direction regarding this song considering I was a local unlike cunts like you who do not even know where Bridgeton even is.

Lol some pseudo anger there - going for the most swear words in a post? See when you go to church on Sunday - you being a good Protestant n all - I hope you pray for forgiveness in the way you think of your fellow christians of the Catholic faith. 

[Malvern 11,329]

14 minutes ago, Bluepeter9 said:

Lol some pseudo anger there - going for the most swear words in a post? See when you go to church on Sunday - you being a good Protestant n all - I hope you pray for forgiveness in the way you think of your fellow christians of the Catholic faith. 

BP9 with no point but winding people up shocker.

PS you didn't answer his questions.

[graeme_4 34,536]

19 minutes ago, Malvern said:

BP9 with no point but winding people up shocker.

PS you didn't answer his questions.

Never does...

[Copland bear 7,966]

18 minutes ago, Malvern said:

BP9 with no point but winding people up shocker.

PS you didn't answer his questions.

He talks one load of pish, 

Maybe he could try and get fellow fans to join his Nationlist movements at the games?

I would bet against him not thou as he not thou as that's the sort of person he is. 

 

[siddiqi_drinker 14,635]

Well this thread took a strange yet not unpredictable turn.

Suspect till TBB actually ends up in court, like IIRC, which happened on one ocassion previously.  A fan was arrested for singing Derry's Walls and the case was thrown out of court.  Until we have something similar for TBB there will be no clarity for either the cops or fans.  If they hear you singing the fenian part you are liable to be arrested.  If a fan is arrested and can prove they were not singing the faux offensive part, it might make for an interesting case.

[Malvern 11,329]

4 minutes ago, siddiqi_drinker said:

Well this thread took a strange yet not unpredictable turn.

Suspect till TBB actually ends up in court, like IIRC, which happened on one ocassion previously.  A fan was arrested for singing Derry's Walls and the case was thrown out of court.  Until we have something similar for TBB there will be no clarity for either the cops or fans.  If they hear you singing the fenian part you are liable to be arrested.  If a fan is arrested and can prove they were not singing the faux offensive part, it might make for an interesting case.

It's hard when the law deems it criminal if "someone" (juan guy maybe?) takes offence, that immediately makes it against the law of this rancid country.

[One Jock Wallace 858]

11 minutes ago, Malvern said:

It's hard when the law deems it criminal if "someone" (juan guy maybe?) takes offence, that immediately makes it against the law of this rancid country.

Not necessarily mate. It doesn't automatically become illegal if a person claims to be offended. The alleged offence has to be proven that the law was broken. i.e It was threatening, offensive, behaviour which a reasonable person would find offensive.

If the words were changed, they would no longer fall in those categories and imo prosecutions would be unlikely as hinted by the FoCUS officer in my previous post. But would ultimately have to be tested in court. 

It could be done if enough Bears really wanted to change it. One things for sure, singing it without the changes will only get you a record & the club in bother. 

 

[Malvern 11,329]

7 minutes ago, One Jock Wallace said:

Not necessarily mate. It doesn't automatically become illegal if a person claims to be offended. The alleged offence has to be proven that the law was broken. i.e It was threatening, offensive, behaviour which a reasonable person would find offensive.

If the words were changed, they would no longer fall in those categories and imo prosecutions would be unlikely as hinted by the FoCUS officer in my previous post. But would ultimately have to be tested in court. 

It could be done if enough Bears really wanted to change it. One things for sure, singing it without the changes will only get you a record & the club in bother. 

 

Fair points well made, the only thing that niggles with me is the words change but people will still sing the old words.

I would love to come back to Ibrox and sing out TBB but even I would be tempted back to my old ways by habit, the law needs to be challenged in it's literal sense and not just on the words or context. The question is do we really want to be literally up to our knees in fenian blood? I think most people do not mean it literally, the english language is allowed to have scope for freedom of expression and only in this country is that now denied while others with some minor changes to lyrics can sing the same song in the same way.

Fuck sake Man Utd fans and Liverpool fans sing about Munich and Hillsborough without so much as a backward glance and they are far more offensive.

[Bad Robot 21,152]

7 minutes ago, Malvern said:

Fair points well made, the only thing that niggles with me is the words change but people will still sing the old words.

I would love to come back to Ibrox and sing out TBB but even I would be tempted back to my old ways by habit, the law needs to be challenged in it's literal sense and not just on the words or context. The question is do we really want to be literally up to our knees in fenian blood? I think most people do not mean it literally, the english language is allowed to have scope for freedom of expression and only in this country is that now denied while others with some minor changes to lyrics can sing the same song in the same way.

Fuck sake Man Utd fans and Liverpool fans sing about Munich and Hillsborough without so much as a backward glance and they are far more offensive.

I think we need to stop looking at what others are doing as the taigs mhedia with the constant propaganda (Septic good, Rangers bad) will be working against the club and our fans at every turn.

Sadly the govt, GCC and the police are full of them and directing public opinion to the deterement to our club.

This has been proven with the cup final bs and how every cunt is lapping up the plo and Hamas supporters, and then there's the fairly powerful rc church.

I think get the line changed and we're onto a winner which puts no risk onto the club or our fans.

The letter is common sense and basically a 'go' to get this brought back albeit IMO  the H** part is a load of bollocks.

[Bad Robot 21,152]

Do we have any Bears with a leaflet printing company on here ?