Coaching Defense

[Jack The Flipper 5,936]

I don't think any one of us would dis big Davie, we all know what he did for us as a player and you could tell that he bled blue. But you'd think with his implementation as a coach it would see us playing excellently defensively. This hasn't happened.

So what's going on?

Is it down to Weir being naturally gifted and therefore cannot convey what is required to be a great defender? He's never had to articulate it in his own mind as a player because it's been so natural to him.

An analogy I can think of is I'm pretty decent at writing music and playing instruments, and people hear me and want me to teach them. I've never had any kind of formal training - could I teach it? No I couldn't. I don't know anything about music theory because it's never interested me or been required. I couldn't explain why I can write what I write because it's done naturally, I just get a feeling to play something and most of the time it comes off.

I can imagine this is true regarding football, how can a naturally gifted defender teach the feeling he gets to move to a certain position to defend an oncoming attack? How can he teach the instinct of what opposition player is about to receive the ball? How can he teach a certain part of the pitch is about to become very vulnerable and therefore must take action to reinforce?

I'm not saying you cannot coach a player, that would be ridiculous. What I'm thinking is perhaps naturally gifted players are not very good teachers as they take their talent for granted and never look at the logistics of what they do in so much depth as someone who's had to analyse themselves over and over and work so hard at it to get to where they are.

What do you think?

 

[AlbertzLoyalRSC 18,104]

It's Defence

[Jack The Flipper 5,936]

1 minute ago, AlbertzLoyalRSC said:

It's Defence

Thanks mate, long day.

What's your thoughts on the main content?

[kaiser1041 9,088]

You can't turn shite to gold.the level of defender we have at the club are preforming as well as a substandard defender can.

[RFCRobertson 11,789]

There's a difference between coaching someone and being there on the field and telling them what to do. 

Although we have a amazing defender as a coach, that doesn't translate into having a good defence. Sometimes explaining how you do something naturally isn't all that easy.

Weir could talk till he's blue in the face about what to do to Kiernan and Wilson but he can't tell them what to do when it's 65 minutes into a game and they have to defend a corner. You can't really prepare a player for that and at that point it's down to either experience or another defender whose experience that can tell you what to do. 

I wouldn't blame Davie exactly, he can't hold their hand during times when it counts at that point the blame shifts to the defenders.

In saying all of that, there is a massive improvement with the defence and it's purely down to Clint Hills presence being able to guide the other defender. 

[Jb85 1,783]

Short and sweet yes some people can't teach. The defence has gotten better though so who is that down too? Davie or Clint? 

[Smile 26,610]

I think weir was able to control and Marshal the defence when he was part of it, it's not the same now he's on the sidelines i think that's why they brought in Clint Hill.

[Jack The Flipper 5,936]

Just now, kaiser1041 said:

You can't turn shite to gold.the level of defender we have at the club are preforming as well as a substandard defender can.

Agreed, and due to our play it really does bring out the weaknesses in technicolour. 

[Jack The Flipper 5,936]

1 minute ago, Jb85 said:

Short and sweet yes some people can't teach. The defence has gotten better though so who is that down too? Davie or Clint? 

I'd agree with Smile and say Hill.

[K.A.I 36,183]

I'm really not sure if they need worked on or not.

As Kaiser says above, they are really shite defenders so maybe all the practice in the world just wouldn't make them better defenders. 

I do have my doubts about David Weir. You'd think we'd have a much better defence with him as Warburton's number two and being a pretty solid defender himself for us but it doesn't always work out that way - decent players don't always make good coaches/managers (as he found out at Sheffield United) and vice-versa. 

I think it's a case of needing to buy better. No-one will convince me otherwise that Warburton done a Paul le Guen and seriously under-estimated what he needed. I think that's obvious (even with King's lies and renegading on the financial backing)

I know no-one will agree with me but a lot of goals we concede especially from set-pieces, when I watch them back it looks to me like we are zonal marking. I've no idea if this is a Warbuton instruction or the defenders are just so shite they lose their man too easily and are left stuck in space like mongos. Either is possible. 

[Jb85 1,783]

1 minute ago, Jack The Flipper said:

I'd agree with Smile and say Hill.

I'll go with both. No one really knows what goes on behind the scenes. Is Davie actually teaching the guys anything new and are they doing it on the pitch? Who knows.

[sammy cox 664]

Perhaps we should bring in a good forward coach and teach our front line how to put the ball in the back of the net.

[TMB 14,167]

I didn't rate Davie as a player and I don't rate him as a coach.  That's right RangersMedia...come get me!

[RFCRobertson 11,789]

4 minutes ago, THE_MIGHTY_BEARS said:

I didn't rate Davie as a player and I don't rate him as a coach.  That's right RangersMedia...come get me!

 

[theclothmonster 1,716]

Bullied in the air by Scott McDonald and outpaced by Boyd, coaching only goes so far.

[SeparateEntityMyArse 53,818]

He's assistant manager, do we even know if he takes responsibility for defensive coaching?

Ultimately buck stops with MW. If he can't sort it it's his fault. If it's someone else's specific coaching  responsibility he has to get them to sort it or get someone in who can. Otherwise, again, it's his fault.

[JockyWilsonspants 80]

1 hour ago, Sportingintegritymyarse said:

He's assistant manager, do we even know if he takes responsibility for defensive coaching?

Ultimately buck stops with MW. If he can't sort it it's his fault. If it's someone else's specific coaching  responsibility he has to get them to sort it or get someone in who can. Otherwise, again, it's his fault.

I came on to say exactly this. We have no idea if Weir is used as a  coach specifically for the defence. Every coaching team is different and without any of us knowing the details of Warburton and Weir's working relationship we can't assume he is employed that way. Weir might just be given his gig by Warburton because he is a motivator, communicator, cone placer, or a sounding board for the gaffer.

[Jack The Flipper 5,936]

1 minute ago, JockyWilsonspants said:

I came on to say exactly this. We have no idea if Weir is used as a  coach specifically for the defence. Every coaching team is different and without any of us knowing the details of Warburton and Weir's working relationship we can't assume he is employed that way. Weir might just be given his gig by Warburton because he is a motivator, communicator, cone placer, or a sounding board for the gaffer.

Well, look at it this way. Is a good manager not one whom uses his assets to make the best team possible? Use people to their strengths etc? If there's one person out of our coaches I would expect to be helping out the defenders it would be Weir.

However, the fact is none of us know. If he's not involved then I'd find that quite unforgivable unless there's a very good reason for it.

[Essandoh 21,224]

[markem 7,287]

2 hours ago, RFCRobertson said:

There's a difference between coaching someone and being there on the field and telling them what to do. 

Although we have a amazing defender as a coach, that doesn't translate into having a good defence. Sometimes explaining how you do something naturally isn't all that easy.

Weir could talk till he's blue in the face about what to do to Kiernan and Wilson but he can't tell them what to do when it's 65 minutes into a game and they have to defend a corner. You can't really prepare a player for that and at that point it's down to either experience or another defender whose experience that can tell you what to do. 

I wouldn't blame Davie exactly, he can't hold their hand during times when it counts at that point the blame shifts to the defenders.

In saying all of that, there is a massive improvement with the defence and it's purely down to Clint Hills presence being able to guide the other defender. 

Agree with much of that. You would however hope we could teach the principle of: when there is two of you and one of them, one of you pick the bastard up. 

[philiprfc 1,799]

Our problem is the system we play. We're overly reliant on wingbacks bombing down the field and it leaves our defenders exposed. This seems especially apparent with Kiernan and Tavernier. We're far better defensively when the back 4 isn't as stretched. I think we need to some attacking threat out wide that doesn't rely heavily on our defenders being up the field.

[markem 7,287]

4 minutes ago, philiprfc said:

Our problem is the system we play. We're overly reliant on wingbacks bombing down the field and it leaves our defenders exposed. This seems especially apparent with Kiernan and Tavernier. We're far better defensively when the back 4 isn't as stretched. I think we need to some attacking threat out wide that doesn't rely heavily on our defenders being up the field.

Mate regardless of system there is no excuses for our defending at times:

Goal one v Beggars: Wilson tracking a man, leaves him, runs in other direction, jumps into fresh air, free man scores.

Goal two v Beggars: Two defenders (K + T)  with the eventual (and only opponent in box) goal scorer within sight and reach of them both.  Neither pick him up.

[Jack The Flipper 5,936]

9 minutes ago, philiprfc said:

Our problem is the system we play. We're overly reliant on wingbacks bombing down the field and it leaves our defenders exposed. This seems especially apparent with Kiernan and Tavernier. We're far better defensively when the back 4 isn't as stretched. I think we need to some attacking threat out wide that doesn't rely heavily on our defenders being up the field.

I think sometimes this is true, but there's plenty of times when we're all back defending and folk start going full retard and forget about the basics. It's too easy to blame the system, but when you've got Tav and Rob defending in a large clump of players and there's a guy unmarked a couple of meters away it's complete unawareness of real threat and is utterly unforgivable.

[Scottyarf37 963]

If you play two at the back, they better be quick,strong, read the game well,    have a sweeper keeper and a solid CDM.

We have none of these things, so the defence( which going by the stats this year has been good) takes a lot of stick.

Would it really be an issue if we scored most of the chances we created. 

I don't mind winning 4-1 every week.

 

[philiprfc 1,799]

9 minutes ago, markem said:

Mate regardless of system there is no excuses for our defending at times:

Goal one v Beggars: Wilson tracking a man, leaves him, runs in other direction, jumps into fresh air, free man scores.

Goal two v Beggars: Two defenders (K + T)  with the eventual (and only opponent in box) goal scorer within sight and reach of them both.  Neither pick him up.

 

8 minutes ago, Jack The Flipper said:

I think sometimes this is true, but there's plenty of times when we're all back defending and folk start going full retard and forget about the basics. It's too easy to blame the system, but when you've got Tav and Rob defending in a large clump of players and there's a guy unmarked a couple of meters away it's complete unawareness of real threat and is utterly unforgivable.

Agree with both posts, and yes that is somewhere that we really need to brush up on, positioning, especially at set pieces, but in fairness I've thought we've looked better in that area this season (maybe not lately though). I think the way we play though comes into it in the sense that we make loads of mistakes in defence + midfield passing between each other and it ends up putting the defence under unnecessary pressure.