European Commission seek explanation on Celtic land deals

[The New Era 339]

Thanks for keeping us apace with developments Soulboy.

[The Educator 1,572]

Soulboy - "another update today on FTH this time about a key missing minutes of meeting about sale of Lennoxtown"

Wasn't there something similar revealed about missing minutes involving the GCC a few weeks back? Tbh, I wouldn't be too surprised if we start to see a pattern emerge regarding "missing minutes" from meetings involving these cases.

[soulboy 2,518]

Thanks for keeping us apace with developments Soulboy.

no probs anything to help spread the word

[soulboy 2,518]

Soulboy - "another update today on FTH this time about a key missing minutes of meeting about sale of Lennoxtown"

Wasn't there something similar revealed about missing minutes involving the GCC a few weeks back? Tbh, I wouldn't be too surprised if we start to see a pattern emerge regarding "missing minutes" from meetings involving these cases.

was it not the minutes of meeting Margaret curran attended on behalf of the scum with WOSHA

[cumnockbear 2,446]

was it not the minutes of meeting Margaret curran attended on behalf of the scum with WOSHA

Those very ones i'm certain.

[Jimfanciesthedude 24,546]

i know this seems to be progressing nicely, but in my heart im still worried that it will amount to heehaw

its even worse because we need this, our club is in such a state that we need this to bail us out on the field in the near future

if it takes 3-5 years to finish we could be so far behind them that even a full punishment from this could still see them level par with us, as i certainly cannot see us getting our act together in the near future

[Thermopylae 15,286]

i know this seems to be progressing nicely, but in my heart im still worried that it will amount to heehaw

its even worse because we need this, our club is in such a state that we need this to bail us out on the field in the near future

if it takes 3-5 years to finish we could be so far behind them that even a full punishment from this could still see them level par with us, as i certainly cannot see us getting our act together in the near future

There is a lot of truth in that but at the end of the day it really does depend on the people at the 2 clubs the wrong manager can lose you tens of millions (look at all the donkeys they have signed recently) and a shrewd one can be worth his weight in gold so Ally's replacement really is just about the most important appointment in the history of our club

[Sore Heid Bear 85]

Think they lose money even with Champions League football that is why they sell a player or two every summer, that is the reality of playing in Scotland just now even with a massive influx of European football money you still don't break even

With CL football, they make a small profit. Without CL football, they make a large loss. Their stated guiding principle is to be able to survive two years with no CL without having to downsize significantly. Pretty sensible. Selling a player or two every summer is also a healthy sign.

If our club was capable of working along such lines, demographics would send us to the top like a cork. Instead Murray crashed us, leaving us prey to the kind of people who are only interested in turning a buck. This phase will pass in time, I just hope it's sooner rather than later.

[soulboy 2,518]

i know this seems to be progressing nicely, but in my heart im still worried that it will amount to heehaw

its even worse because we need this, our club is in such a state that we need this to bail us out on the field in the near future

if it takes 3-5 years to finish we could be so far behind them that even a full punishment from this could still see them level par with us, as i certainly cannot see us getting our act together in the near future

Well if the EU stick to their own rules it should be a guilty verdict as their rules are pretty simple.

You cannot sell public land without it going on the open market, it doesn't matter how much the land was sold for even if it reached market value (the scum had water tight option to buy London Road school).

So for the London Road school they should be found guilty if the EU follow their own rules.

You cannot sell land at below market value (westhorn was sold at 83% below market value) it will depend on how the EU define how much should have been discounted due to abnormalities..

The only thing is if they are found guilty they get 10 years to pay it all back so it would depend on what the SFA/SPFL do to cripple them. Fines ? title stripping ? They have said they are waiting for the EU to finish their investigation before they decide what to do.

[Jimfanciesthedude 24,546]

so it would depend on what the SFA/SPFL do to cripple them. Fines ? title stripping ? They have said they are waiting for the EU to finish their investigation before they decide what to do.

thats what worries me, that spineless shower will do heehaw claiming that the EU's fine etc is enough of a punishment, its a fucking certainty and its gut wrenching when you think that we used to be the dominant club in scottish football both on the park and in the corridors of power

the days of jim farry holding up cadete's registration are long gone

[soulboy 2,518]

thats what worries me, that spineless shower will do heehaw claiming that the EU's fine etc is enough of a punishment, its a fucking certainty and its gut wrenching when you think that we used to be the dominant club in scottish football both on the park and in the corridors of power

the days of jim farry holding up cadete's registration are long gone

Put it this way if they were going to throw the book at us before the court case outcome with EBTs then if they don't do anything about them when they are found guilty then there will be no doubt that they are corrupt as hell.

At the end of the day they wouldn't have been able to afford the players they did if they had to pay full market value for the land, thats the exact same reasoning they used against us with EBTs.

They will be left with no choice but to go after them or rangers should sue the fuck out of them. With the articles that VB are doing at the minute it reminds everyone what they tried to do to us regards title stripping etc The same should be afforded to the scum when they are found guilty

[ayesteady 78]

Well if the EU stick to their own rules it should be a guilty verdict as their rules are pretty simple.

You cannot sell public land without it going on the open market, it doesn't matter how much the land was sold for even if it reached market value (the scum had water tight option to buy London Road school).

So for the London Road school they should be found guilty if the EU follow their own rules.

You cannot sell land at below market value (westhorn was sold at 83% below market value) it will depend on how the EU define how much should have been discounted due to abnormalities..

The only thing is if they are found guilty they get 10 years to pay it all back so it would depend on what the SFA/SPFL do to cripple them. Fines ? title stripping ? They have said they are waiting for the EU to finish their investigation before they decide what to do.

They may get 10 years to pay it all back although I'm not entirely certain about time scales as such but bear in mind that all the dodgy land sales have been used as security for the Coop loans and the bank will be determined that they don't lose out on any moneys due to them. Got a good feeling here that these bheggars are going to be totally screwed as demands for repayment will come from more than one angle. If and when it comes and they are rightfully found to be guilty I for one will be celebrating with a few good malt whiskies.

[campsieloyal 104]

They may get 10 years to pay it all back although I'm not entirely certain about time scales as such but bear in mind that all the dodgy land sales have been used as security for the Coop loans and the bank will be determined that they don't lose out on any moneys due to them. Got a good feeling here that these bheggars are going to be totally screwed as demands for repayment will come from more than one angle. If and when it comes and they are rightfully found to be guilty I for one will be celebrating with a few good malt whiskies.

spot on can see co-op calling in or selling on loans, pretty sure pzj mentioned not only repayment but unlimited fines can be imposed by ec. could be fatal?

[Ozblue 4,331]

spot on can see co-op calling in or selling on loans, pretty sure pzj mentioned not only repayment but unlimited fines can be imposed by ec. could be fatal

The tarriers are absolutely shitting themselves about the latest FOI reports PZJ has sent to the EU......and they have every right to be, because what he has uncovered is unbelievable proof of criminal activity to go along with the State aid part of it.

[The Educator 1,572]

Soulboy - "was it not the minutes of meeting Margaret curran attended on behalf of the scum with WOSHA"

Could well b mate, just remembered there had been something to do with missing minutes.

The SFA/SPFL have a real problem brewing with this, as a previous poster said if they don't hit them hard if found guilty it would look corrupt in comparison to how we were treated. It could well end up with a claim for damages from our club and its shareholders. The other thing is the suspicion that the now frequent rewrites of the rule books are being structured so that any punishment on them would be minimised, but as senior officials and lawyers who are linked to c****c have been involved in these rewrites it would be highly unlikely that they would stand up under a legal challenge. If anything they could both end up being landed with an investigation for participating in corruption along with the club involved. Only one thing is sure though, this isn't going to be swept under the carpet and go away thanks to folk like PZJ and the VB's.

[Mr Soprano 13,964]

Hoping against hope they pay for this.

[soulboy 2,518]

WESTHORN TIMELINE by PZJ

1965 and 1987 – The now Glasgow City Council (GCC) commissioned Site Investigations at Westhorn, possibly with a view to establishing the extent of any mining below ground level. Our investigations have shown that there were some 39 boreholes carried out in total. Information was gained from the British Geological Survey. At the time, there would have been full records of soil strength capacity, possible test results on contamination levels, a factual report and an interpretative report, amongst other things. Such ground conditions do not alter over time unless disturbed. Bores were taken to depths in excess of 40m below ground level. Therefore, it would have been prudent for GCC to have archived these expensive reports and records for future use. To do otherwise, would be reckless and foolhardy. It seems, however, that when Celtic plc (CFC) wished to purchase the land at Westhorn, these records had either been discarded, or at best, overlooked.

I wonder if the European Commissioner has requested sight of these. It has been made known to him/her in earlier correspondence.

If they had, they would surely have found that there were no problems regarding issues of contamination or geotechnical, or even mining.

We have recently been made aware, from the EC, that only one Geotechnical Report has been made available, and which was instrumental in CFC agreeing a purchase price with GCC in 2009, and which also contained details of ‘abnormals.’ This information on abnormals has been used to reduce the selling price to a preposterously low level.

Incidentally, the Geotechnical Report was commissioned and possibly paid for, by CFC. Normally that would render sight of the document nigh impossible without the permission of CFC. However, it could now be strongly argued that this document is now technically in the public domain and could therefore be deemed to be public property.

It would be of interest to find out the content of this report, and as to whom compiled the report on behalf of CFC, as we are well aware that there were no abnormals present of any significance.

1991 – A Planning Application was submitted by CFC for extension and alterations to changing rooms etc. adjacent to Belvidere Hospital grounds.

It is noted that there were no restrictions. In 1991 there was no requirement to consult with the HSE.

2001 – CFC put forward a Planning Application whilst leasing the ground from GCC, to construct training pitches, facilities and car parking. There was no Environmental Impact Assessment requested, indicating that there was no reason to suspect that the ground contained contaminants. The link below takes us to the On Line Planning System of GCC.

https://publicaccess.glasgow.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=0100087DC

There is little posted on line, probably due to the age of the Application. An appointment was made with GCC to view these documents, along with another four. Only three were available. On further application, GCC informed me that the above Application had been removed from file by persons unknown, and not returned.

It should be of interest to the public and the EC that these documents have gone missing. One possible reason could be that there was no mention of any abnormals within the lands, and no mention of a ‘Blast Zone.’

2002 – A Planning Application was made by a neighbour for construction of a portable building. The Application was approved with Conditions (not at all onerous). Application No. 02/00079/DC.

It is noted that there were no other restrictions. In 2002, the HSE placed a 500m Consultation Dimension (CD) around Dewars, neighbouring Westhorn whilst risks were being assessed. This information is/was also held by the Planning Authority, as they should have consulted with the applicant and the HSE to ensure a suitable development would be constructed within this particular CD. There was no consultation.

A further Planning Application was made that year to carry out alterations to a property contiguous to Dewars; link below.

The documents for 0200984/DC were available for collection, as there were few attachments.

https://publicaccess.glasgow.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=0200984DC

The Application was for a new yard, new office extension and new cladding to an existing warehouse.

It is noted that there were no restrictions, despite there being a 500m CD set by the HSE around Dewars in 2002. Strange that, when Celtic purchased Westhorn a few years later, the price was based on that set by the District Valuer in 2004, and that a ‘blast zone’ appeared along with other allegations of ‘abnormals’ amounting to a reduction in price of some £3.5M.

2004 – CFC commissioned a geotechnical report as part of their process to purchase the land at Westhorn from GCC. The report was passed to GCC. The District Valuer was commissioned to value the site.

As stated above, there was an Interim Consultation Dimension (CD) in place at that time, set by the HSE in consultation with the GCC Planning Department, of some 500m around the Dewars site. That 500m would have taken in the whole of the Westhorn site, and more. However, GCC state that they valued approximately half of the land as being worthless; as being within a ‘blast zone’ which was previously unknown. The Planning Dept. of GCC should have been well aware of any zone around Dewars considering their involvement along with the HSE.

Strange that, when the whole area was actually encompassed by this fictitious blast zone.

2005 – A three-zone CD was set up around Dewars by the HSE in consultation with GCC.

2009 – A contract was put in place (which was previously an ‘Option to Buy’ clause which gave CFC sole rights to the ground should they ever wish to make the purchase). In this year, the three-zone CD was in place, as above.

It is of note that the extreme zone only encompassed some 23% of the Westhorn land, yet GCC and CFC agreed a reduction of almost 50% of the area (as it had no worth, according to both parties).

That ‘assumption’ is wholly incorrect, as the whole of the land has value. The 23% is also of great worth. The only restriction placed upon the area by the HSE is that the density of population of any building(s) whether temporary or permanent, is restricted potentially rendering the value a little less than the remainder of the area; but not worthless.

It should be noted here that a Planning Application was not made, therefore the parties involved in the transaction would not necessarily have been aware of the CD in place. In other words, there would have been no reason not to value the WHOLE area of the land (13.5 acres) nor would there have been any known reason to make any deduction for ‘abnormals.’

It is hereafter well documented that GCC sold the land at Westhorn to CFC commencing at a value which was initially depressed, and which was further dramatically reduced by fictitious abnormals, to a paltry sum of £675,000.00 for 13.5 acres of prime construction land; thus depriving the citizens of Glasgow and the Taxpayer of several millions of pounds; given instead to a Football Club as State Aid.

That same day, a charge was placed upon the land by the Coop Bank, as security on substantial loans.

It would be of great interest to the Taxpayer, the Citizens of Glasgow and the EU Commissioner, as to the value placed upon that land. £675,000? I think not!

[Blue Nosed Babe 20,680]

When this comes to pass we need to have a parade for pjz.

The man who blew the lid on the foul stench of corruption from the East End.

[Bad Robot 21,150]

When this comes to pass we need to have a parade for pjz.

The man who blew the lid on the foul stench of corruption from the East End.

defo, I would like to buy him, D'art and a few of the VB's a pint for all their hard work.

[ayesteady 78]

defo, I would like to buy him, D'art and a few of the VB's a pint for all their hard work.

Me too, in fact the RM admin guys can set up a Paypal merchant account so as anyone on here can donate as a thank you to them all

[lancedeangers1 287]

Excellent sir once again.

[fuckthespl 2,473]

Me too, in fact the RM admin guys can set up a Paypal merchant account so as anyone on here can donate as a thank you to them all

Agreed i would chip in. they should also be able to go onto the field for a cheer at half time at a game against the bheasts!

[cumnockbear 2,446]

It's all going to crash down very soon for the bheasts, i see severe punishment on the way for this and a lottttttttt of resignations from C****c and the SFA

[NitPicker14 0]

Really wish fellow bears would stop pinning all of their hopes on this. What if they haven't done anything. Or what if they have and they get away with the lot.

Then there will be nothing to hang on to. This thread is already 8 months on and absolutely nothing had happened. It's always coming soon, or next week.

I'm starting to think we are all being lead a merry dance with the lot of it. It's bullshit. Every man and and their dog is a property or land expert now.

What will we cling on to if this doesn't amount to anything?

[CheckMateCharlie 228]

Really wish fellow bears would stop pinning all of their hopes on this. What if they haven't done anything. Or what if they have and they get away with the lot.

Then there will be nothing to hang on to. This thread is already 8 months on and absolutely nothing had happened. It's always coming soon, or next week.

I'm starting to think we are all being lead a merry dance with the lot of it. It's bullshit. Every man and and their dog is a property or land expert now.

What will we cling on to if this doesn't amount to anything?

Aye ok Timmy. Dont worry,0 there should be an ice cream van around shorty so you can go oot and mingle with the weans. Just you wait, there's nowhere to run.