Something older Bears have to understand...

[snoopyboymason 13]

i think we should never lose our traditions it is what make's us a special club imo

I find it incredible that someone using the title of snoopyboymason should find this salute expectable or did no one teach you about the forget-me-not either take the time to learn about it or delete the mason part of your name snoopyboy

i'm talking about our protestant and proud scottish/british tradition which we should be proud of not the salute and mason is my surname

[eastcoastbear 122]

The big difference betwwen us "older Bears" and the young kids coming now is nothing to do with sectarianism.

I'm 37 and growing up in a tough housing scheme in Glasgow i had 5 very good mates.....2 bluenoses and 2 Tims and a Jag.

We went through years of winning nothing but kept going.

Alot now in their early 20's grew up with success and the changing of our signing policy,the better stadia and big stars at Ibrox.

I'm 37 and grew up in the 70's and 80's where winning the Cup and league was a major thing.....younger bears are spoiled and don't know the history of the club where as we were brought up to know what it meant to support Rangers.

We're an institution not just a football club and the sooner people realise that the better.Never 20 years ago would a bear grass another bear for saying something offensive and the Red hand salutes in Israel were young neds as was the bother in Villareal so before pointing your finger learn the facts and be a man not a boy and support the institution that is Glasgow Rangers football club and stop with your petty comments.

WATFP

Spot on Gaff. Feckin sick of these pc types who are not only content with ruining society, they also want to damage our institution. Would never have happened in Maggie's time!!

[minstral 5,375]

i think we should never lose our traditions it is what make's us a special club imo

I find it incredible that someone using the title of snoopyboymason should find this salute expectable or did no one teach you about the forget-me-not either take the time to learn about it or delete the mason part of your name snoopyboy

you have picked up snoopyboy wrong he was just on about rangers traditions and does not mention anything about salutes as nobody could defend that behaviour.

[blueger9 0]

The big difference betwwen us "older Bears" and the young kids coming now is nothing to do with sectarianism.

I'm 37 and growing up in a tough housing scheme in Glasgow i had 5 very good mates.....2 bluenoses and 2 Tims and a Jag.

We went through years of winning nothing but kept going.

Alot now in their early 20's grew up with success and the changing of our signing policy,the better stadia and big stars at Ibrox.

I'm 37 and grew up in the 70's and 80's where winning the Cup and league was a major thing.....younger bears are spoiled and don't know the history of the club where as we were brought up to know what it meant to support Rangers.

We're an institution not just a football club and the sooner people realise that the better.Never 20 years ago would a bear grass another bear for saying something offensive and the Red hand salutes in Israel were young neds as was the bother in Villareal so before pointing your finger learn the facts and be a man not a boy and support the institution that is Glasgow Rangers football club and stop with your petty comments.

WATFP

Great post,....should be held up for all to see on this forum.....

[Frankie 505]

There is nothing wrong with anyone being proud of our traditions, history and heritage. I know am.

However, from time to time, when certain aspects of our behaviour do damage to our club it's best to refrain from certain things such as these daft salutes and using the fenian word while so many of our enemies highlight the smallest thing for us to be punished.

At the same time, instead of people moaning on about persecution, we should be compiling our own concerns and evidence to show that we are not the bigots the establishment appear to be calling us ona whim.

Thankfully, I know there are plenty people doing just that behind the scenes.

[Gaffbear 4,101]

cheers guys

It had to be said

[Albahighlander 0]

Take a look at who are doing the salutes at games

You will realise then that it ain't got anything to do with being 'older bears'.

Many of the 'older bears' have a sense of tradition and culture that it is intertwined with their support of the club and has not the slightest relationship to sectarianism.

The problems are much mnore complex than a simplistic, it's the older bears at fault.

Some of the problems come from young Neds, some of the problems come from young people brought up with no sense of identity or culture, some of the problems come from young people brought up with no background in any church.

What happens at Ibrox is not to do with age but simply a reflection of wider problems in society.

As for being happy to see a 'pc' environment = that's acquiescence based upon youthful naivety

There is hee haw wrong with the salutes and UEFA have no objections so carry on as before lads...dont take these things lying down coz Murray will never defend us

Are you totally stupid FISH ? The salute is seen world-wide. It is seen as a Nazi salute. Simple. Do you want Rangers to be hated ? Do you want us to be despised ? Get a grip of yourself. Love and kisses. Coop

The red hand Im talkin aboot ya shocker !!!

You mean THIS red hand salute Fish ? Who has their head in the sand pit now ?

Red Hand Salute - An Educated ViewThis is a thing that really bugs me and we're portrayed as NAZI's for doing it. A guy on my forum penned this and hopefully it may have some impact. We need to start making people aware that this salute is offensive and should not be done.

Why not just place your hand on your heart and sing or even hold a scarf aloft.

This so called Red Hand Salute has to stop if we want to move on.

Look at the NOTW from Sunday. They mentioned the IRA FEST parade but that's it, no condemnation of it but who gets it US. Why? A group of protesters with a couple of Union Flags and doing the Nazi salute. BNP, NF, Neo Nazi that's what they called us. Do you like people thinking that we're Neo Nazi, them that don't know what it is meant to depict, this so called(RHS).

Time for it to STOP. This is a pic of the protesters doing the so called Red hand salute. What does that say?

Spot the difference ...

Hopefully a couple of the fanzines might publish this to get it across to those who don't have the internet as it needs to be stopped.

Rule Britannia, Britannia Rules the waves, Britons’ Never Never Shall Be Slaves

They wont be slaves and rightly so. Brits, and Rangers fans in particular, should ‘never never’ be pro Nazi. The ignorant and uneducated fans who continue to taint the good name of Rangers by carrying out Nazi Salutes should be ashamed of themselves.

“Ahh, but its no a Nazi salute, it’s the red hand saluteâ€

No its not, the red hand salute is non existent, and it pains me to say it, but the red hand salute is merely a symbol which fans embarrassingly hid behind to condone the support of Neo-Nazis within Britain’s shore. It's first appearance at Ibrox (I believe) in the 80's, coinciding with the introductionof the extreme right wing "Chelsea bootboys'" unofficial friendship with Rangers.

Terry Last, a soccer hooligan and a leading figure of both the head-hunters and the National Front, also played a role in the rise of this disgusting symbol and dragged England's national support to an all time low when he was pictured displaying the salute whilst "on tour" with England not long before his arrest and imprisonment in connection with his hooligan activities.

Following his trial Last was labelled "Little Hitler of the Soccer Thugs" by the English media.

Rangers Fans were recently up in arms when Celtic's Stephen Pearson clearly chanted IRA at a social function in Ireland whilst on club duty, we know he did it, and the media do too. We criticise the media for being one sided, well now its time to face facts – the Rangers support need to rid themselves of this disgusting salute, let's worry about our own house before we try and put others’ in order.

"People in glass houses should not throw stones"

If you see anyone, intentionally or unintentionally, contributing to the use of Nazi salutes within Ibrox, or any other ground where Rangers fans’ are in attendance, do the right thing and politely question why, within Britain’s’ shores’ are they saluting and displaying support for one of the most evil dictatorships in world history, that had they achieved there goal, would have destroyed Great Britain, a union which is sacred to many within our own support. Most probably, their reply will be, its not a Nazi salute, it’s a Red Hand. It's time to educate the uneducated, make it clear to the idiots that this mythical Red Hand Salute does not exist and it has no place amoungst a Rangers support that we are extremely proud of.

To ignore this, is to others- who need no encouragement to attack us an indication that we condone support for a regime similar to those which our current leaders are trying to rid the world of in Iraq and Afghanistan.

If they won’t take your word for it, tell them to ask an Ulsterman about a Red Hand salute – they probably won’t know anything about it, because frankly, there isn’t one. If that’s not possible tell them to go along a memorial service in November and to give their Red Hand Salute at the cenotaph, let them explain then that its not a Nazi Salute.

Worryingly this salute is becoming more and more evident within the younger bears. It is your duty, as a Rangers Fan to spread the word and protect our image which has been subjected to repeated and concentrated defamatory attacks from the media and anti sectarian organisations.

By all means possible fight for our reputation and challenge the unreported sectarian behaviour and pro terrorist songs from our rivals, but do so if you are sure that your own conscience is clear of any potential damage you have or will cause to your club and fellow supporters' reputation as you do so.

Remember - WE ARE THE PEOPLE , it is every one of our duties to keep it so

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

Alot of Supporters follwing Rangers now a days, in recent times, do not have the same up brining as many, we did not have Protestism and the union in our upbringins, we did not grow up with such sectarian divides, we did not grow up in times of the signing policy, or in the times of the IRA.

We do not believe that Rangers stand for Britain or PROTESTANTS, we follow Rangers because it is the club we love.

The quicker older bears realise times have changed, the quicker Ibrox will become a better place....and there will be alot less bitching on this forum

Perhaps if these younger bears had taken the time to learn to treat fellow bears...of whatever age...with mutual respect rather than resort to abusing them....there would be a lot less bitching on this forum.

[Friedmarsbar 1]

Does anyone know this guy called 'Fish' ? I have my concerns as his posts ,responses and conduct on this board gives me the impression this guy just might be a Celtic supporter taking the mickey under the name 'Fish'.

If not,he is one Rangers supporter we could do without on here!

[minstral 5,375]

Does anyone know this guy called 'Fish' ? I have my concerns as his posts ,responses and conduct on this board gives me the impression this guy just might be a Celtic supporter taking the mickey under the name 'Fish'.

If not,he is one Rangers supporter we could do without on here!

in my opinion the fish is a good ranfers fan and loves the club.

[blueger9 0]

These boards would be alot less colourful without the FISH....he raises points maybe others wont go near, and in turn ruffles afew feathers....surely thats what these boards are about....varying opinions !

[SanchoPanza 0]

Perhaps if these younger bears had taken the time to learn to treat fellow bears...of whatever age...with mutual respect rather than resort to abusing them....there would be a lot less bitching on this forum.

Well said that man.

And for my tuppence worth, I think something younger bears have to understand, and this comes from experience, is that no matter how hard you try, it will never be enough for the yahoos. Ever.

Yes we have our faults, but try turning the microscope on our enemies. Once you remove the thin layer of grime, it truly is a horrible spectacle. :yes:

[Boab 73]

Alot of Supporters follwing Rangers now a days, in recent times, do not have the same up brining as many, we did not have Protestism and the union in our upbringins, we did not grow up with such sectarian divides, we did not grow up in times of the signing policy, or in the times of the IRA.

We do not believe that Rangers stand for Britain or PROTESTANTS, we follow Rangers because it is the club we love.

The quicker older bears realise times have changed, the quicker Ibrox will become a better place....and there will be alot less bitching on this forum

Here bloody here

[Saudibear 0]

In the beginning Moses did not start our club as a protestant club, however by the turn of the century that is the direction that our forefathers took. By and large Rangers developed and grew along Protestant traditions and this is the heritage that has been handed down to us through the years. When I first started going regularly to Ibrox we sang the traditional songs that included the sash etc and reveled in our Protestantism. IMO however the sectarian songs and actions that we are now accused of (pro paramilitary songs and actions) did not appear until after the start of the Northern Irish troubles in 1969. I must admit I joined in with several of these songs, although now, with perceived peace in the province I do look on them in a different light and will no longer join in.

I understand that people of my generation see the clubs traditions as something we grew up with while people born late 60's see different traditions i.e. the troubled years. The younger yet who grew up in the PC late 90's and early 2000s have yet a different perception.

We should all agree that we support more than a football club, we support an institution and as such should do nothing to harm that institution.

[Gaffbear 4,101]

In the beginning Moses did not start our club as a protestant club, however by the turn of the century that is the direction that our forefathers took. By and large Rangers developed and grew along Protestant traditions and this is the heritage that has been handed down to us through the years. When I first started going regularly to Ibrox we sang the traditional songs that included the sash etc and reveled in our Protestantism. IMO however the sectarian songs and actions that we are now accused of (pro paramilitary songs and actions) did not appear until after the start of the Northern Irish troubles in 1969. I must admit I joined in with several of these songs, although now, with perceived peace in the province I do look on them in a different light and will no longer join in.

I understand that people of my generation see the clubs traditions as something we grew up with while people born late 60's see different traditions i.e. the troubled years. The younger yet who grew up in the PC late 90's and early 2000s have yet a different perception.

We should all agree that we support more than a football club, we support an institution and as such should do nothing to harm that institution.

Very true.

As a child of 1969 i only knew thr troubles,from every night on the news to visiting relatives and seeing the peace line ,the army and hearing the odd explosion.

I am a Scottish/British protestant who has always been a die hard bluenose and i ahve joined in the sectarian songs with full belt.....yes things have to change but why should wwe give up our very close association with Ulster and the thousands of bluenoses there.

Everyone of these little pc(new rangers') need to get a grip and see that it's you who are taking away Rangers football club from the people who it has become a beacon too for decades.

The bigotry will stop but the loyalist songs will stay as will our support for our brothers in Blue in Ulster.

This very institution that is Rangers football club will remain as will the MAJORITY of it's supporters who like me are sick of little do good pc twats who are trying to ruin Rangers

[snoopyboymason 13]

In the beginning Moses did not start our club as a protestant club, however by the turn of the century that is the direction that our forefathers took. By and large Rangers developed and grew along Protestant traditions and this is the heritage that has been handed down to us through the years. When I first started going regularly to Ibrox we sang the traditional songs that included the sash etc and reveled in our Protestantism. IMO however the sectarian songs and actions that we are now accused of (pro paramilitary songs and actions) did not appear until after the start of the Northern Irish troubles in 1969. I must admit I joined in with several of these songs, although now, with perceived peace in the province I do look on them in a different light and will no longer join in.

I understand that people of my generation see the clubs traditions as something we grew up with while people born late 60's see different traditions i.e. the troubled years. The younger yet who grew up in the PC late 90's and early 2000s have yet a different perception.

We should all agree that we support more than a football club, we support an institution and as such should do nothing to harm that institution.

Very true.

As a child of 1969 i only knew thr troubles,from every night on the news to visiting relatives and seeing the peace line ,the army and hearing the odd explosion.

I am a Scottish/British protestant who has always been a die hard bluenose and i ahve joined in the sectarian songs with full belt.....yes things have to change but why should wwe give up our very close association with Ulster and the thousands of bluenoses there.

Everyone of these little pc(new rangers') need to get a grip and see that it's you who are taking away Rangers football club from the people who it has become a beacon too for decades.

The bigotry will stop but the loyalist songs will stay as will our support for our brothers in Blue in Ulster.

This very institution that is Rangers football club will remain as will the MAJORITY of it's supporters who like me are sick of little do good pc twats who are trying to ruin Rangers

exactly take away our heritage and we are just another team

[Loyal&True 0]

In the beginning Moses did not start our club as a protestant club, however by the turn of the century that is the direction that our forefathers took. By and large Rangers developed and grew along Protestant traditions and this is the heritage that has been handed down to us through the years. When I first started going regularly to Ibrox we sang the traditional songs that included the sash etc and reveled in our Protestantism. IMO however the sectarian songs and actions that we are now accused of (pro paramilitary songs and actions) did not appear until after the start of the Northern Irish troubles in 1969. I must admit I joined in with several of these songs, although now, with perceived peace in the province I do look on them in a different light and will no longer join in.

I understand that people of my generation see the clubs traditions as something we grew up with while people born late 60's see different traditions i.e. the troubled years. The younger yet who grew up in the PC late 90's and early 2000s have yet a different perception.

We should all agree that we support more than a football club, we support an institution and as such should do nothing to harm that institution.

Very true.

As a child of 1969 i only knew thr troubles,from every night on the news to visiting relatives and seeing the peace line ,the army and hearing the odd explosion.

I am a Scottish/British protestant who has always been a die hard bluenose and i ahve joined in the sectarian songs with full belt.....yes things have to change but why should wwe give up our very close association with Ulster and the thousands of bluenoses there.

Everyone of these little pc(new rangers') need to get a grip and see that it's you who are taking away Rangers football club from the people who it has become a beacon too for decades.

The bigotry will stop but the loyalist songs will stay as will our support for our brothers in Blue in Ulster.

This very institution that is Rangers football club will remain as will the MAJORITY of it's supporters who like me are sick of little do good pc twats who are trying to ruin Rangers

exactly take away our heritage and we are just another team

maybe we should start a thread titled, "something younger bears need to understand" and show them the errors of their ways lol

[Danny 9]

I love how so many bears, older ones in particular keep whinging about how 'our enemies want to see the end of our club' - and yet the irony of their own contribution to this possibly happening thanks to ignoring what the club and Uefa wants never fails to amuse me.

'Our enemies want us gone; but I will continue to hurt the club by doing what the hell I like'

I find that funny.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

I love how so many bears, older ones in particular keep whinging about how 'our enemies want to see the end of our club' - and yet the irony of their own contribution to this possibly happening thanks to ignoring what the club and Uefa wants never fails to amuse me.

'Our enemies want us gone; but I will continue to hurt the club by doing what the hell I like'

I find that funny.

I think you would find the majority of older Bears...certainly on here....would fully follow the guidelines laid down by the club and those imposed by UEFA.

As has already been attested on here...and I have seen it myself...the majority of fans doing this salute are younger.

[THEFISH 0]

I love how so many bears, older ones in particular keep whinging about how 'our enemies want to see the end of our club' - and yet the irony of their own contribution to this possibly happening thanks to ignoring what the club and Uefa wants never fails to amuse me.

'Our enemies want us gone; but I will continue to hurt the club by doing what the hell I like'

I find that funny.

Just for the record I said......I have always said I would oblige and not sing inside the grounds etc but during my own time I will belt out what ever I like

Im certainly not laughing I can guarantee you all that, Im deadly serious and will stand up for my old RFC traditions <_<

[Skol 401]

I think the biggets problem with the atmosphere at Ibrox is the division in the support between those who want to sing the traditional songs (for which the club is constantly criticised) and those who feel uncomfortable with them.

These constant threads between "older bears" and "younger bears" do not help and I feel this is a very arbitrary division. Is there a certain age you have to reach to fall into the former category? In my opinion it's less about age and more about ideals.

I don't see a resolution any time soon but the one sure thing is that we need more unity at Ibrox. The fans appear to be divided. I think some people have to accept that a growing proportion of our fans do not want to sing lines such as "up to our knees in fenian blood" or songs about the IRA and pope, no matter how much of a part of our tradition this is. No amount of arguing is going to change this. So what's the solution? Cut out/change individual lyrics? Ban certain songs? Sing them anyway? Introduce new songs or re-introduce some older ones which have been forgotten?

I honestly don't know but I think debating that is more constructive than constantly having a go at each other.

We need to find some common ground on this issue so we can have the fans at Ibrox singing in one united voice.

[BLUEDIGNITY 33,684]

Alot of Supporters follwing Rangers now a days, in recent times, do not have the same up brining as many, we did not have Protestism and the union in our upbringins, we did not grow up with such sectarian divides, we did not grow up in times of the signing policy, or in the times of the IRA.

We do not believe that Rangers stand for Britain or PROTESTANTS, we follow Rangers because it is the club we love.

The quicker older bears realise times have changed, the quicker Ibrox will become a better place....and there will be alot less bitching on this forum

Yes I'm sure you love the club ! Where were you brought up then ? Cause there is still a sectarian divide in this country, you must have led a very sheltered life my friend, what about cafflic schools then, what about cellic football club then, what about glasgow cooncil then, none of the aforementioned will employ Protestants if they can get away with it, you're either in denial or are scared of that mob and would convert in the morning. Don't forget they are only 16% of the population. This is still the times of the IRA incidently, remember every time you make a payment to satan TV thats where your cash is going allegedly. So do me a favour don't be so naive and GET YER HEID OOT THE SAND !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Friedmarsbar 1]

As an older bear I can honestly say things are changing and politically. For instance did anyone see the Rugby at Croke park yesterday where at the ground of Irish Republicanism ,'God save the Queen' was sung lustily and was applauded by the mostly Irish crowd. That was pretty amazing. It just shows there has been a

rejection of Irish terrorism and the overwhelming majority of both communities are heartily behind that.

Paradoxically the mindset of a lot of the Plastic paddy/scottish support of Celtic still have to make that journey. I have met a few people from the republic and they are a long way removed from that type of supporter that frequents Celtic park.

[Skol 401]

Alot of Supporters follwing Rangers now a days, in recent times, do not have the same up brining as many, we did not have Protestism and the union in our upbringins, we did not grow up with such sectarian divides, we did not grow up in times of the signing policy, or in the times of the IRA.

We do not believe that Rangers stand for Britain or PROTESTANTS, we follow Rangers because it is the club we love.

The quicker older bears realise times have changed, the quicker Ibrox will become a better place....and there will be alot less bitching on this forum

Yes I'm sure you love the club ! Where were you brought up then ? Cause there is still a sectarian divide in this country, you must have led a very sheltered life my friend, what about cafflic schools then, what about cellic football club then, what about glasgow cooncil then, none of the aforementioned will employ Protestants if they can get away with it, you're either in denial or are scared of that mob and would convert in the morning. Don't forget they are only 16% of the population. This is still the times of the IRA incidently, remember every time you make a payment to satan TV thats where your cash is going allegedly. So do me a favour don't be so naive and GET YER HEID OOT THE SAND !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes there is still a sectarian divide in this country but it's totally magnified in the west of scotland. I grew up in the Highlands and didn't experience any of it until moving to Glasgow. Your black-and-white rhetoric about "them" and "us" and especially the suggestion that paying for a subscription to Setanta funds the IRA is very outdated

[Loyal&True 0]

As an older bear I can honestly say things are changing and politically. For instance did anyone see the Rugby at Croke park yesterday where at the ground of Irish Republicanism ,'God save the Queen' was sung lustily and was applauded by the mostly Irish crowd. That was pretty amazing. It just shows there has been a

rejection of Irish terrorism and the overwhelming majority of both communities are heartily behind that.

Paradoxically the mindset of a lot of the Plastic paddy/scottish support of Celtic still have to make that journey. I have met a few people from the republic and they are a long way removed from that type of supporter that frequents Celtic park.

i agree with all that, times are a changing, but its not going to be something that happens over night and some people need to realise that, was good watching the ruggers yesterday and was taken aback a bit with irish reaction, but mind its a different sort that follow that sport