Dingwell

[ZX750 31]

"Rangers have been fined €19,500 and severely warned about their responsibility for any future misconduct by their fans in relation to sectarian and discriminatory behaviour."

That fine was greater and separate to the €13,000 for "the improper conduct of some of their supporters, notably the smashing of a window of the Villarreal team bus".

The STB/FTP fine was for behaviour the following season against Osasuna in Pamplona.

I agree with many posters that the directive is far from clear (and I'm unsure any song/term is banned by UEFA) but to suggest we weren't punished for singing TBB is also incorrect and unhelpful IMO.

Was that for The Billy Boys though?!

[Frankie 505]

Paddy McCourts (insert whatever context offends you on any particular day) Fenian army.

Fuxache "fenian" even comes up on my predictive text.

Have I got a sectarian I-phone?

I'm handing myself in to the cops

As ever context is important when judges (or journalists) want to prevaricate. It's like the age old use of 'n***er' - one context is racist, one is a pseudo-socialist ironic adjective for a brother!

Me, I'd have thought the age old 'sticks and stones make break my bones' argument was more appropriate when talking about millions of pounds worth of money being wasted on something that will never be fixed due to social differences that go much deeper than football terrace tribalism.

[CanadianBacon 2,088]

I don't think that's the point the poster is making. Whether a court needs to prove it or not doesn't detract from the fact that a lot of people use the word fenian as a substitute for catholic. To pretend otherwise doesn't help the debate.

Can I clear something up here?

If I shout, "Away ye' go ya' Catholic bastard!" will I be charged with a sectarian breach of the peace (the guy may well be a Catholic and I am therefore merely stating a fact) or will I be charged with a straightforward breach of the peace for the public use of the word 'bastard' (he may well also be one of those anyway)?

[RFC55 110,554]

Can I clear something up here?

If I shout, "Away ye' go ya' Catholic bastard!" will I be charged with a sectarian breach of the peace (the guy may well be a Catholic and I am therefore merely stating a fact) or will I be charged with a straightforward breach of the peace for the public use of the word 'bastard' (he may well also be one of those anyway)?

More than likely

[Frankie 505]

Was that for The Billy Boys though?!

Yes, because that was the song specifically mentioned by UEFA in the initial judgement. The link is in this thread but here's the quote again:

"In examining the alleged discriminatory chants, the Control & Disciplinary Body admitted that the nature of the song concerned – “Billy Boys” - related to a social problem in Scotland."

Now, initially UEFA suggested this wasn't a problem but on appeal from Herr Kapl (aided and abetted by Celtic-minded people in Scotland), they appealed their own decision and we there then fined for sectarian behaviour.

FWIW, after that censure, I then feel Murray felt the best course of action was to ban that particular song to avoid further problems. In retrospect, that action was possibly premature as I doubt UEFA are overly interested in taking stronger action.

However, it is difficult to judge their intentions because (as we seen with the Villarreal debacle) they're a law unto themselves and will remain pressured by people in higher places than you or I. Celtic fans will not give up on this and we're all well aware of how slewed debate on the subject is in this country.

As such, to try and move the debate on, how would you recommend we challenge UEFA and/or other parties in order to achieve clarity and/or parity in this issue? People (including myself) have attempted this before but have not fared all that well. I'd certainly be interested in a new, improved approach though.

[ZX750 31]

Yes, because that was the song specifically mentioned by UEFA in the initial judgement. The link is in this thread but here's the quote again:

"In examining the alleged discriminatory chants, the Control & Disciplinary Body admitted that the nature of the song concerned – “Billy Boys” - related to a social problem in Scotland."

Now, initially UEFA suggested this wasn't a problem but on appeal from Herr Kapl (aided and abetted by Celtic-minded people in Scotland), they appealed their own decision and we there then fined for sectarian behaviour.

FWIW, after that censure, I then feel Murray felt the best course of action was to ban that particular song to avoid further problems. In retrospect, that action was possibly premature as I doubt UEFA are overly interested in taking stronger action.

However, it is difficult to judge their intentions because (as we seen with the Villarreal debacle) they're a law unto themselves and will remain pressured by people in higher places than you or I. Celtic fans will not give up on this and we're all well aware of how slewed debate on the subject is in this country.

As such, to try and move the debate on, how would you recommend we challenge UEFA and/or other parties in order to achieve clarity and/or parity in this issue? People (including myself) have attempted this before but have not fared all that well. I'd certainly be interested in a new, improved approach though.

Fair doos, skim read the 7 pages so that clears it up. That also makes sense why Rangers have issued warnings over the past 3 matches to not indulge in Sectarian singing and notably mentioned the Billy Boys.

There aint no obvious answer to this, no journalist would be willing to publicly back us over the Billy Boys - Unless Leggo wants to step forward and present our case to Uefa.

[CanadianBacon 2,088]

Yes, because that was the song specifically mentioned by UEFA in the initial judgement. The link is in this thread but here's the quote again:

"In examining the alleged discriminatory chants, the Control & Disciplinary Body admitted that the nature of the song concerned – “Billy Boys” - related to a social problem in Scotland."

Now, initially UEFA suggested this wasn't a problem but on appeal from Herr Kapl (aided and abetted by Celtic-minded people in Scotland), they appealed their own decision and we there then fined for sectarian behaviour.

FWIW, after that censure, I then feel Murray felt the best course of action was to ban that particular song to avoid further problems. In retrospect, that action was possibly premature as I doubt UEFA are overly interested in taking stronger action.

However, it is difficult to judge their intentions because (as we seen with the Villarreal debacle) they're a law unto themselves and will remain pressured by people in higher places than you or I. Celtic fans will not give up on this and we're all well aware of how slewed debate on the subject is in this country.

As such, to try and move the debate on, how would you recommend we challenge UEFA and/or other parties in order to achieve clarity and/or parity in this issue? People (including myself) have attempted this before but have not fared all that well. I'd certainly be interested in a new, improved approach though.

Might I suggest a bus trip be arranged to visit those who matter at UEFA's HQ and that we knock three shades of the living fuck out of these handwringing, overpaid, busybody Protestant-hating bastards before heading back to Blighty for a traditional pie & Bovril and a quick shoplifting session at the port of Dover.

(Naturally I'm kidding.............the shoplifting session will continue at the motorway services all the way up the M6.)

[ZX750 31]

Might I suggest a bus trip be arranged to visit those who matter at UEFA's HQ and that we knock three shades of the living fuck out of these handwringing, overpaid, busybody Protestant-hating bastards before heading back to Blighty for a traditional pie & Bovril and a quick shoplifting session at the port of Dover.

(Naturally I'm kidding.............the shoplifting session will continue at the motorway services all the way up the M6.)

Eurotrips

[Frankie 505]

Fair doos, skim read the 7 pages so that clears it up. That also makes sense why Rangers have issued warnings over the past 3 matches to not indulge in Sectarian singing and notably mentioned the Billy Boys.

There aint no obvious answer to this, no journalist would be willing to publicly back us over the Billy Boys - Unless Leggo wants to step forward and present our case to Uefa.

Yes, I'd have thought Leggatt was one person who could help. Gordon Smith and Professor Steve Bruce may be another couple of experienced folk who could comment. I'm sure we all have other contacts of appropriate background (legal, academic etc) who we could approach to put together something that shows exactly how sensationalised this whole subject is.

Given Celtic's continual and ongoing Republican stance and their supports' unpunished penchant for IRA glorification (something which is also supposed to be illegal) then one could argue fen!an has never been more appropriate in song from those who oppose such principles.

The most immediate hurdle though is that terms such as 'fen!an' have already been pretty much outlawed in this country in many contexts. When people like Donald Findlay struggle to defend their use in the courts and many more people (with vested interests such as politicians or charities) argue against it publicly, then it won't be easy to show how harmless a football chant which utilises it is.

[CanadianBacon 2,088]

Yes, I'd have thought Leggatt was one person who could help. Gordon Smith and Professor Steve Bruce may be another couple of experienced folk who could comment. I'm sure we all have other contacts of appropriate background (legal, academic etc) who we could approach to put together something that shows exactly how sensationalised this whole subject is.

Given Celtic's continual and ongoing Republican stance and their supports' unpunished penchant for IRA glorification (something which is also supposed to be illegal) then one could argue fen!an has never been more appropriate in song from those who oppose such principles.

The most immediate hurdle though is that terms such as 'fen!an' have already been pretty much outlawed in this country in many contexts. When people like Donald Findlay struggle to defend their use in the courts and many more people (with vested interests such as politicians or charities) argue against it publicly, then it won't be easy to show how harmless a football chant which utilises it is.

Simples.

Insert the following word into the Billy Boys song and legally Plod or UEFA haven't got a leg to stand on.

Hello, Hello, we are the Billy Boys!

Hello, Hello, you'll know us by our noise,

We're up to our knees in Ta-rrier blood,

Surrender or you'll die,

For we are the (fill in your own district or area of choice) Billy Boys!

The word Ta-rrier does not appear in any dictionary I've seen so it is therefore a non-word..........but I know exactly what it infers.

Job done.

[Adoniram 1,919]

What people tend to forget is that when the Procurator Fiscal is outlining the conditions for certain terminolgy and what constitutes a breach etc they forget who this person is Elish Angiolini.

Here she is in all her glory alongside Paul McBride QC..Punch a Pape O'Brien and numerous other Lord Justices and Judges of the Judiciary System

Of course had this been reversed and they were in a Church with the Grand Master of the Orange Order and the Chaplain from the order then they would be bigots.

And people wonder why Fenian has now been set in stone as automatically meaning Catholic.

[gunslinger 270]

Oh dear Gerrard - you didnt half contradict yourself there.

You are surely not saying ALL Celtc fans are catholics - not multicultural Celtc.

They really want to have their cake and eat it dont they?

I suspect Gerrard was offended but he's not sure exactly what offended him.

indeed

i suspect they lost the cast because of that.

just shows all in your at the mercy of the just ice you get on the day in cases like this. findlay tried the same defence and lost.

[gunslinger 270]

Whats the difference between a Fenian bastard and a Hibee bastard or a Dundee bastard?

All forms of sectarianism, racism or prejudice in one way or another yet they get sung at every ground in Scotland?

I'll sing the Billy Boys until my balls get felt, personally. Also the fine from Uefa was for tanning that bus window/ Simply The Best - Hardly befitting a ban for the Billy Boys.

Rangers have shat it, pure and simply.

simply the best was in ossasuna and the bottle thing was also a seperate charge.

hibie blood isnt a sectarian breach but it is a breach of the peace in the right circumstance.

[gunslinger 270]

Paddy McCourts (insert whatever context offends you on any particular day) Fenian army.

Fuxache "fenian" even comes up on my predictive text.

Have I got a sectarian I-phone?

I'm handing myself in to the cops

this is another thing thats unhelpful in a proper debate.

if they sing about it it is entirely different. there is no way it can be coinsidered religious and is clearly related to the fenian brotherhood in this case.

ie the think hes a republican.

its a pathetic argument that does nothing and goes nowhere.

[RFC55 110,554]

this is another thing thats unhelpful in a proper debate.

if they sing about it it is entirely different. there is no way it can be coinsidered religious and is clearly related to the fenian brotherhood in this case.

ie the think hes a republican.

its a pathetic argument that does nothing and goes nowhere.

Gunslinger I can categorically state that wether we sing fenian blood, shellick blood, Bhoys blood, T*rrier blood, Mickey blood, bheggars blood, or fucking humpty dumptys blood it would be deemed offensive.

I can also assure you if we still sang to them go home you h*** that would also be classed as offensive.

Oh and if you need proof of 1 rule for 1 and 1 rule for another, we sang on saturday up to our knees in fenian blood and on RC on Monday it was discussed. But no mention of the ICT fans dirty orange bastards

[CanadianBacon 2,088]

Gunslinger I can categorically state that wether we sing fenian blood, shellick blood, Bhoys blood, T*rrier blood, Mickey blood, bheggars blood, or fucking humpty dumptys blood it would be deemed offensive.

I can also assure you if we still sang to them go home you h*** that would also be classed as offensive.

Oh and if you need proof of 1 rule for 1 and 1 rule for another, we sang on saturday up to our knees in fenian blood and on RC on Monday it was discussed. But no mention of the ICT fans dirty orange bastards

Sweep-sweep........move along please folks..........nothing to see or be offended by here.

[Frankie 505]

What people tend to forget is that when the Procurator Fiscal is outlining the conditions for certain terminolgy and what constitutes a breach etc they forget who this person is Elish Angiolini.

Here she is in all her glory alongside Paul McBride QC..Punch a Pape O'Brien and numerous other Lord Justices and Judges of the Judiciary System

Of course had this been reversed and they were in a Church with the Grand Master of the Orange Order and the Chaplain from the order then they would be bigots.

And people wonder why Fenian has now been set in stone as automatically meaning Catholic.

To be fair to Angiolini, she also made it clear as Fiscal that Boruc was not cautioned for blessing himself as some Celtic-minded commentators continue to suggest.

I believe she has resigned from her post as of next year's elections as well. I wonder who will be lined up to replace here. Maybe that's why McBride has been so vocal of late....

[gunslinger 270]

Can I clear something up here?

If I shout, "Away ye' go ya' Catholic bastard!" will I be charged with a sectarian breach of the peace (the guy may well be a Catholic and I am therefore merely stating a fact) or will I be charged with a straightforward breach of the peace for the public use of the word 'bastard' (he may well also be one of those anyway)?

they will think the fact he is a catholic is also an issue with you and add religiously agrivated to your breach for sure.

[CanadianBacon 2,088]

To be fair to Angiolini, she also made it clear as Fiscal that Boruc was not cautioned for blessing himself as some Celtic-minded commentators continue to suggest.

I believe she has resigned from her post as of next year's elections as well. I wonder who will be lined up to replace here. Maybe that's why McBride has been so vocal of late....

Oh brilliant - just what the Protestant majority in Scotland needs.

A pillow-munching, knee-bending Ta-rrier apologist as Fiscal.

[gunslinger 270]

What people tend to forget is that when the Procurator Fiscal is outlining the conditions for certain terminolgy and what constitutes a breach etc they forget who this person is Elish Angiolini.

Here she is in all her glory alongside Paul McBride QC..Punch a Pape O'Brien and numerous other Lord Justices and Judges of the Judiciary System

Of course had this been reversed and they were in a Church with the Grand Master of the Orange Order and the Chaplain from the order then they would be bigots.

And people wonder why Fenian has now been set in stone as automatically meaning Catholic.

the same eilish angolini who defended d findlay when ian grant of hotline fame tried to get him struck of and is indeed no longer procurator fiscal i believe.

[gunslinger 270]

To be fair to Angiolini, she also made it clear as Fiscal that Boruc was not cautioned for blessing himself as some Celtic-minded commentators continue to suggest.

I believe she has resigned from her post as of next year's elections as well. I wonder who will be lined up to replace here. Maybe that's why McBride has been so vocal of late....

angelini isnt a problem

again it does no good to pretend she is.

mcbride may well be.

[CanadianBacon 2,088]

they will think the fact he is a catholic is also an issue with you and add religiously agrivated to your breach for sure.

And what if I call him a "Ta-rrier bastard!" ???

The word doesn't appear in any dictionary that I've read.

[Adoniram 1,919]

To be fair to Angiolini, she also made it clear as Fiscal that Boruc was not cautioned for blessing himself as some Celtic-minded commentators continue to suggest.

I believe she has resigned from her post as of next year's elections as well. I wonder who will be lined up to replace here. Maybe that's why McBride has been so vocal of late....

We all know it will be another "on message" individual who will do the bidding of those with an agenda.

[gunslinger 270]

Gunslinger I can categorically state that wether we sing fenian blood, shellick blood, Bhoys blood, T*rrier blood, Mickey blood, bheggars blood, or fucking humpty dumptys blood it would be deemed offensive.

I can also assure you if we still sang to them go home you h*** that would also be classed as offensive.

Oh and if you need proof of 1 rule for 1 and 1 rule for another, we sang on saturday up to our knees in fenian blood and on RC on Monday it was discussed. But no mention of the ICT fans dirty orange bastards

your right in every part of that.

looking at the link from the procurator fiscal i always post it seems the blood part is also an issue.

you would need to take that out as well.

i would love us to move to a song along the same lines about rangers and not a razor gang. the words have changed before why not again.

your right as well about the double standards and alot of that is the press. we have a huge problem in this country in that we as rangers fans support the media financially that hates us.

ornage bastards

h** whatever

every bit as bad.

ayr blood a breach of the peace as well. not religiously agrivated but a breach none the less in the right circumstance.

[gunslinger 270]

And what if I call him a "Ta-rrier bastard!" ???

The word doesn't appear in any dictionary that I've read.

i dont know.

simple breach i expect to keep them safe.