Cracking Vb Read

[ritchieshearercaldow 22,137]

Just to make sure this argument is water tight, can someone explain if the Tims (the Club, that is) were actually involved with this tax dodge with the film companies?

Because there's no point in us making fools of ourselves arguing that they are in the same boat as us by using a tax avoidance scheme therefore their web-toed fans can't claim any moral superiority and asking for title stripping when it wasn't actually CFC but rather their players as individuals.

They're trying to say Rangers Football Club are the big baddies but we can't say that their Club isn't any better if it wasn't actually the Club who paid into the film production scheme.

The fact that they used EBTs, however, is interesting especially when added in to the mix that they were one of few companies who used them that paid back all the tax without being asked (as mentioned in someone else's post, maybe Oleg) but also has a Dr Death as an ardent fan, who was also on the board at one point.

Considering the amount of people at the club who had them, it looks like there was someone at the club who was advising them (clubs tax adviser?)

There's too many of them for it just to be a coincidence, so yes I would say the club were involved.

[Rangers4thennowforever 57]

This cunt saying Rangers are mired in it its the serialisation of him and his cronies that are causing more damage than anything. Fans will always bait and goad each other until time ends,those with a brain see it as just that,those with bigotry hatred and dare I say jealousy have their own agendas.

Let's get back to the mire a football team is in. The green and grey are mired in the most disgusting behaviour ever too not be addressed within our shores.First their was torbett not once but twice the Kellys allowed him access to the dome even to go into business with him after stein "sort of" address the situation by showing the beast the door.The fans done nothing they thought we'll keep quiet and it'll go away,when it didn't and will never,the near mention of it your accused if glorifying child abuse.no we're not were reminding the world what happened and making sure it never happens again which it did!!!!

Macari writes in his book he was approached by a youth player in America when they where over for a tournament staying he'd been worried about the advances of a certain coach connected to the club. Not a fucking word mentioned until macari,s book.what did the fans and media do? "Absolutely nothing"!then we have the black bin liner found in a cupboard by a cleaner,connected to someone in the celtic view with access to the inner reaches of the club of young naked boys.what did the fans the club and the media do? Yip you've got it never mentioned a word about it. The only time I heard anything about it was sitting watching the news and a quick 2minutes wording.no statement from the club or the supporters condemning the person and staying they are against it.The media a little column in the first addition then not a word mentioned from that day.

Well spears if you want to talk about clubs in the mire you should look no further than the club and the fans of the ppl your supporting and egging on with your agenda that's only suiting you to pay your bills we are not daft and we will never forget.ps try come into ibrox and sit amongst us again I dare you.

[Shuggy 1,308]

The fact that there were so many Celtic players enrolling into these schemes makes me wonder if Celtic offered to pay for them to enrol ... if they signed up for the club.

Now that would set the cat amongst the pigeons.

[Shuggy 1,308]

The fact that there were so many Celtic players enrolling into these schemes makes me wonder if Celtic offered to pay for them to enrol ... if they signed up for the club.

Now that would set the cat amongst the pigeons.

Kenny Miller was at Celtic around that time, wonder if he knows anything?

[Moody Blue Legend 61,501]

Aye but that O'Dea wasn't on the list.........!

[ChesterPerry 472]

We were not morally wrong to use ebts.

Morals are personal to the individual.

Hanging paedophiles is a moral imperative and common sense in a moral nation. Not everyone agrees witj that tho do they.

I will.say it again, scottish protestants falling for the left wing lie has led us here.

The cosgrove utterances carry no weigjt with self minded achievers, only those that want a share of others wealth . Feed the grievance.

Couldn't have said it better myself

[Spectre 1,663]

Just to make sure this argument is water tight, can someone explain if the Tims (the Club, that is) were actually involved with this tax dodge with the film companies?

Because there's no point in us making fools of ourselves arguing that they are in the same boat as us by using a tax avoidance scheme therefore their web-toed fans can't claim any moral superiority and asking for title stripping when it wasn't actually CFC but rather their players as individuals.

They're trying to say Rangers Football Club are the big baddies but we can't say that their Club isn't any better if it wasn't actually the Club who paid into the film production scheme.

The fact that they used EBTs, however, is interesting especially when added in to the mix that they were one of few companies who used them that paid back all the tax without being asked (as mentioned in someone else's post, maybe Oleg) but also has a Dr Death as an ardent fan, who was also on the board at one point.

It is the players and staff as individuals, I'd expect there has been some club involvement given they all seem to have joined schemes around the same time but it could just be a shared tax adviser

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

Good read. Good use of facts.

Wonder how long it will take Bluepeter9 to enter the thread and insult everyone. Paranoid Protestants that we are.

Some of you are!

That article is ok and only mildly paranoid - if the article had stuck to facts and argument it would have been fairly powerful - instead it plays the paranoia ( and bigotry) cards! The whole last paragraph reeks of paranoia.

There are many counter arguments to the Title stripping Shite but ramping up the hysteria, looking for 'collective agenda ' when there have been numerous articles not in favour of title stripping is not a great tactic.

Want to look weak? Start looking over your shoulders at what 'might' be happening; what 'might' occur, what 'could' be going on? That's where some of our fans are - whimpering about persecution.

[Bluefarm 1,055]

VB know articles are spot on when the resident hater criticises.

[theblueskyeman 528]

Makes you wonder if this is why the likes of Sutton and O Neil have come out and said that we shouldn't be stripped of any titles because they know full well they were using tax avoidance schemes other than ebts and this all may be exposed sooner or later?

This week has seen an explosion of moral hypocrisy in Scottish football; a moral hypocrisy which sadly has become rather common place in the last five or so years. The catalyst for the latest explosion was HMRC winning its appeal against oldco. Predictably, this ruling has brought fresh calls from various media pundits and high-profile fans to strip Rangers of titles won during years in which EBTs were used.

The call for title stripping is both morally and legally absurd, and is supported by the weakest of arguments. On the legal side, nothing in the latest appeal had any bearing upon previous rulings regarding sporting advantage, as anyone who has kept up with the facts and doesnt have a pre-established agenda against the club will admit. The moral argument is also completely flawed, as I will show here.

Some, like Jim Spence, Alex Thomson and Graham Spiers, have argued as follows. Despite being legal at the time of use, because EBTs took advantage of a loophole Rangers exploited Scottish football for their own benefit, and also exploited the taxpayer. Thus, morally speaking, they cheated (Spence, Spiers) and won titles fraudulently (Thomson).

However, this argument is an extremely bad one for the following reason. Many clubs, in Scotland and elsewhere, have taken advantage of various tax loopholes. So the conclusion generalizes: if Rangers are guilty for the aforementioned reasons, so are the other clubs. Thus, by parity of reasoning, every club which has ever exploited tax loopholes should be title stripped.

I suspect that Spiers, Thomson, Spence et al. would reject this. But they have given us no principle reason to do so if Rangers should be title stripped, then so should Celtic, who used EBTs in 2004-05, and another loophole involving film companies between 2001-2006. So should Arsenal, who used EBTs between 2001-2006. When the target is Rangers, principle goes out the window title stripping is discussed with regards to this club by these individuals because they treat it as a special case a club which they hate. I have seen no arguments by any of these individuals to refute this point. At base, then, we have journalists quick to moralize on one instance (Rangers) but choose to ignore violations of the same moral principle when it comes to other clubs (Celtic, Arsenal, etc). That is clear moral hypocrisy.

To highlight this, I want to look more closely at Celtics own tax avoidance scheme. In the early 2000s, the British government, in an attempt to incentivize domestic film production, provided tax breaks to film companies. Many Celtic players and staff, including CEO Peter Lawwell, director Eric Riley, Neil Lennon, Johan Mjallby and John Hartson established film companies; companies where they would subsequently put money earned from their Celtic contracts. Why did they do this? Simple, because they would avoid taxation on that income (roughly, by spurious investment in film technologies). The following displays the various companies, and their beneficiaries:

• Bobby Petta - The Film Develpment Partnership II LLP - Feb '04
• Chris Sutton - WRP Dryvac LLP - Aug '04
• John Hartson - The Mamjam Technology Platform Partnership LLP - Apr '03
• Neil Lennon - The Mamjam Technology Platform Partnership LLP - Apr '03
• John Harston - The Casedirector Technology Partnership LLP - Apr '03
• Neil Lennon - The Casedirector Technology Partnership LLP - Apr '03
• Neil Lennon - Ingenious Film Partners 2 LLP - Apr '03
• Momo Sylla - Inside Track 1 LLP - Dec '03
• Momo Sylla - Ingenious Film Partners LLP - Mar '05
• Eric Riley - Inside Track 3 LLP - Jul '03
• Johan Mjallby - Malvern Media LLP - Dec '02
• Johan Mjallby - Jubilee Film Partnership LLP - Mar '05
• Martin O'Neill - Inside Track 2 LLP - Dec '03
• Martin O'Neill - Inside Track 3 LLP - Dec '03
• Peter Lawwell - Inside Track 3 LLP - Dec '03
• Alan Thompson - Owen Film Partnership LLP - Apr '06
• Alan Thompson - The Film Development Partnership II - Sep '03
• Alan Thompson - D IV LLP - Sep '03
• Stan Varga - The Gala Film Partners LLP - Feb '04
• Stan Varga - Innvotec 3 LLP - Mar '05
• Stan Varga - Innvotec 6 LLP - Mar '05
• Stan Varga - The Invicta Film Partnership No 23 LLP - Mar '06
• Craig Bellamy - Cherwell Films LLP - Mar '05
• Craig Bellamy - Orwell Films LLP - Mar '05

For my purposes, the technical details about how this tax-avoidance scheme works are irrelevant; what matters is the fact that employees of Celtic FC used a loophole to avoid filling the HMRC coffers. This is indisputable. For more on the technical details, see:

http://williampoole.blogspot.ca/2013/02/wp-archives-jun-04-2012-celtic.html

http://www.<No links to this website>/news/neil-lennon-tax-scheme-blow-1173612

So why, if morality and doing the right thing are so important to Spiers, Thomson, Spence and a host of other bloggers, journalists, etc., then why are these individuals, and their employer, Celtic FC, not being chastised and denigrated as tax cheats? For there is no principled reason for the moral argument, as I have called it, to be applied in the case of Rangers but not Celtic (and others). The reason, as you have guessed it, is moral hypocrisy Rangers are to be held to a different moral standard than Celtic; presumably because these individuals are partial to the latter.

Thus, as my analysis demonstrates, the moral argument against Rangers is just bigotry in disguise; a convenient excuse to further kick around a club which has been, since 2012, subjected to all sorts of illegal punishments. This is demagoguery at its worst: faulty arguments and poorly constructed justifications such as these are part of the press-gang tactics being used by various factions in Scotland to cow the SFA into further, unjustified punishment of Rangers. It happened in 2012, and is potentially happening as we speak.

[piperpete 3,186]

Can you copy and paste that article mate?

Give the site the hits.

[bluepeter 5,627]

Morality has nothing to do with tax avoidance. If morality came into it, millions of self employed people working in oil and gas for example would not be able to stick their wives down as an employee just to significantly lower a house hold tax burden.

The way taxes are collected is immoral, circumstances dictating a household burden rather than income. One earner in a house with dependants earning 100k pays a huge amount of tax more than a couple both earning 50k.

Clearly the tax system us far too complicated and costs a fortune to administer.

Is that Rangers fault for trying to reduce tax burden.

I wonder how many of those pontificate, then get a mate to do a cash in hand homer, thus depriving the taxman? Hypocrisy at its finest.

This

I work abroad, but pay full UK tax. I'm in the UK for less than 6 months a year, but I pay tax as if I used the UK systems 12 months per year. My missus works very little (lazy cow ) so pays no tax, but I pay much more than a couple who have no kids and each earn half my wage. I receive nothing back in child benefit, because I earn too much. The couple who each earn half my wage get full child benefit if they have a kid.

If I could reduce my tax bill, I would. I could go self employed and save a decent amount, but my company asked me not to. Hopefully doing what they asked will be the right decision in the long term.

[plumbGER 24,518]

Give the site the hits.

Sorry i wasn't meaning the Vanguard article i was meaning the article in the Herald that you need to subscribe to read.

[siddiqi_drinker 14,635]

This

I work abroad, but pay full UK tax. I'm in the UK for less than 6 months a year, but I pay tax as if I used the UK systems 12 months per year. My missus works very little (lazy cow ) so pays no tax, but I pay much more than a couple who have no kids and each earn half my wage. I receive nothing back in child benefit, because I earn too much. The couple who each earn half my wage get full child benefit if they have a kid.

If I could reduce my tax bill, I would. I could go self employed and save a decent amount, but my company asked me not to. Hopefully doing what they asked will be the right decision in the long term.

Umbrella company? little bit more costlier than setting up your own company but may offer some savings.

[bluepeter 5,627]

Umbrella company? little bit more costlier than setting up your own company but may offer some savings.

I looked at that a while ago, I don't think it applies. I'm an employee not a contractor, umbrella companies seem to be a way to get round IR35 which doesn't really apply. I've spoken to my accountant about things like this, he advised me to go self employed. It's not the right thing for me at the moment, my company asked me not to and it would kill advancement in the company. We discussed it just before the oil price crashed, I'm glad I didn't do it now. I'd probably be ok, but there's a bit more security being an employee. Having said that, if they wanted to sack me they could, good job I'm amazing at what I do!

A guy I work with has a similar set-up, the company pay him through his company. He set it up when he was working in Ethiopia, but still uses it. He ends up with a similar tax bill to mine, actually. It just seems more complicated for no real benefit.

[K.A.I 36,183]

Some of you are!

That article is ok and only mildly paranoid - if the article had stuck to facts and argument it would have been fairly powerful - instead it plays the paranoia ( and bigotry) cards! The whole last paragraph reeks of paranoia.

There are many counter arguments to the Title stripping Shite but ramping up the hysteria, looking for 'collective agenda ' when there have been numerous articles not in favour of title stripping is not a great tactic.

Want to look weak? Start looking over your shoulders at what 'might' be happening; what 'might' occur, what 'could' be going on? That's where some of our fans are - whimpering about persecution.

and there it is ....

[MisterC 12,274]

I looked at that a while ago, I don't think it applies. I'm an employee not a contractor, umbrella companies seem to be a way to get round IR35 which doesn't really apply. I've spoken to my accountant about things like this, he advised me to go self employed. It's not the right thing for me at the moment, my company asked me not to and it would kill advancement in the company. We discussed it just before the oil price crashed, I'm glad I didn't do it now. I'd probably be ok, but there's a bit more security being an employee. Having said that, if they wanted to sack me they could, good job I'm amazing at what I do!

A guy I work with has a similar set-up, the company pay him through his company. He set it up when he was working in Ethiopia, but still uses it. He ends up with a similar tax bill to mine, actually. It just seems more complicated for no real benefit.

When the great socialist revolution comes in the tax system will be fairer and will make things better for the majority of tax payers

[Tontospal 1,116]

We were not morally wrong to use ebts.

Correct any criticism of EBTs and the rights or wrongs of the scheme should be aimed at the Treasury who deemed it legal and failed to close what many seen as a loophole.

The witch hunt against our club is nothing other than the scum hordes clutching at straws to defeat Rangers because their, often tax dodging, film investing players were unable to do so.

I wonder if Spence, Spiers and Thomson have ever taken steps to avoid or evade tax.