The Billy Boys (Reprise)

[Blue Avenger 22,567]

The logical way forward would be for the fans groups to agree on the words and then confirm these in a collective statement. These groups would then need to stick to the agreed version so that the words stick and the majority sing it. The fans groups must lead. By providing the statement and actually implementing it would draw a line in the sand and allow things to move forward. The song can then be blasted out and the fans and the club would be beyond reproach from the football authorities, police and media(well maybe no!).

Get what you are saying but I see it being much deeper thatn that.

The logical way forward is to vote the SNP out of power. Close state sponsored sectarian schools and prosecute every hate filled taig glorifying terrorists. Then get plod/pf to do their job and prosecute every paedophile priest that they have on record and have swept under the carpet.

Nothing less than a cleansing of the putrid air that eminates from these rhabid malcontent subversive bastards and their appeasers will end their quest for our burial.

[Rangerclackman 167]

Spiers and those of a similar ilk still portraying Rangers supporters as the big bad Protestants subjugating the poor Irish immigrants are really only doing it to avoid the real root causes of sectarianism.

If Rangers supporters change the words to the Billy boys am I never going to be called a h** or orange bastard again?

I'm not arguing about changing the words but the significance in terms of the causes of sectarianism placed on the song by Spiers is nothing short of ridiculous.

I agree mate, so we have to be pragmatic in our approach, drop the word and highlight this so we are untouchable by the law and the so called offended, and then can sing our rousing anthem with inpunity, then rangers ask spfl for investigation of scottish clubs using sectatian terms againsr protestants such as h**. Turn it all on its head, liaise with the uk media.

Ffs someone just give me the job at rangers and ill sort it by next weekend.

We need this all sorted out by next season btw or the unwashed and their media pals will never allow us to savour our homecoming...take the lead on this gers!!!!

[Briton 394]

1. You will find that writers in particular are both anoraks as well as protective when it comes to the use of language - and quite rightly too - words are the means by which we communicate to readers. Any ambiguity over the meaning of certain words can lead to a confused or distorted message.

2. I personally have never used the word "fenian" in any blog ever, not do I use it in normal everday language a a descriptive term for those of the Catholic faith. As the term itself in its original form included those of the Protestant faith such use to me would be inaccurate.

3. As I said in the OP its a ridiculous notion to outlaw words because a section of the overall population misuse it from its original context - howver the point of this post to make this whole argument obsolete by adapting the wording of the song.

1. It's foolish to be an anorak and protective when it comes to the use of the English language. Unlike many other languages it is fluid and many words are used to mean different things from the original meaning; sometimes the direct opposite meaning even. Words also have more than one meaning, right?

2. I've only used Fenian to mean a Tim but I know, as do you, that it has and is used to mean Catholic. There's no point in denying that. Harking back to to it's original meaning is dishonest.

3. Once again, for someone who seems to have an affinity with the English language you don't seem to understand how it works. The original meaning of any word is an irrelevance; the context is what matters.

I agree that the wording needs to be (re-?)adapted (if we are to see the Billy boys to see it return). Personally I think we should concentrate on supporting Rangers and leave them out of our songs. Hence replace ' up to our knees in Fenian blood' with 'we sing The Sash and Derry's walls'. That way we drop the 'offending' bit whilst still staying with the 'culture' that is important to many Bears.

To sum it up, It seems to me Celtic are known for what they are, whilst we are known for what we are against. You even define yourself that way.

[Spuddy Zelda 64]

Get what you are saying but I see it being much deeper thatn that.

The logical way forward is to vote the SNP out of power. Close state sponsored sectarian schools and prosecute every hate filled taig glorifying terrorists. Then get plod/pf to do their job and prosecute every paedophile priest that they have on record and have swept under the carpet.

Nothing less than a cleansing of the putrid air that eminates from these rhabid malcontent subversive bastards and their appeasers will end their quest for our burial.

Its simply a case of handling things cleverly.

[Pure_Quality 3,295]

To sum it up, It seems to me Celtic are known for what they are, whilst we are known for what we are against.

There's been some right rubbish posted on here that's hurt my eyes, but that's the worst yet.

You are making the leap that because in one/two songs we use the word fenian, we are known for being 'anti-Celtic' rather than 'pro-Rangers'? That's fucking lunacy.

Tell me one club that doesn't have a song about their greatest rivals containing a derogatory term and i'll show you a team that's never won anything, and probably never will.

Mentalism that comment, honestly.

[RFC55 108,970]

It's amazing to think that all the arguments over the meaning of fenian that there's a song that includes the line "and soon they'll be no protestants at all" which is sung regularly by a support I'm Scotland.....

[Blue Avenger 22,567]

Its simply a case of handling things cleverly.

Yes.

[Briton 394]

There's been some right rubbish posted on here that's hurt my eyes, but that's the worst yet.

You are making the leap that because in one/two songs we use the word fenian, we are known for being 'anti-Celtic' rather than 'pro-Rangers'? That's fucking lunacy.

Tell me one club that doesn't have a song about their greatest rivals containing a derogatory term and i'll show you a team that's never won anything, and probably never will.

Mentalism that comment, honestly.

I was thinking about anti-Catholic rather than anti-Celtic and I mean generally. Tell me a club that has a derogatory song about a rival club's fans that is based on their race/religion. Spurs fans are even getting it in the neck for calling themselves Yids. My mate, a Spurs fan, keeps saying they wont stop them singing it. They will.

Also...in the rest of Britain (outwith Strathclyde/Ulster) people rarely define themselves as Protestant. If asked, they will tell you which sect the adhere to rather than say they are Christian but not Catholic.

Another thing I've noticed. My football supporting mates (and others) will comment/joke about Rangers not playing Catholics (back in the day, and yes, I know the reality of the history); why is it not only playing Protestants? Because that is not how we are perceived.

[bridgeman 12]

The logical way forward would be for the fans groups to agree on the words and then confirm these in a collective statement. These groups would then need to stick to the agreed version so that the words stick and the majority sing it. The fans groups must lead. By providing the statement and actually implementing it would draw a line in the sand and allow things to move forward. The song can then be blasted out and the fans and the club would be beyond reproach from the football authorities, police and media(well maybe no!).

This ^^^^^^^^^^^

I have to agree, though, we really do need to confirm 100% with the powers that be that the 'Billy Boys' is actually not a 'Banned Song', and, that we're not just wasting our time and efforts.

If we get agreement that it isn't 'Banned Song', then we have to do exactly as above.

I'd change the one 'Offending' word to 'Rebel'.

Whatever happens, we need to get 'All' the fans to agree the new word(s) and stick with it, or, not sing the song at all, if it is 'Banned'.

That way our club will not get into any trouble, which is the important thing in all of this.

WATP.

[RFC55 108,970]

This ^^^^^^^^^^^

I have to agree, though, we really do need to confirm 100% with the powers that be that the 'Billy Boys' is actually not a 'Banned Song', and, that we're not just wasting our time and efforts.

If we get agreement that it isn't 'Banned Song', then we have to do exactly as above.

I'd change the one 'Offending' word to 'Rebel'.

Whatever happens, we need to get 'All' the fans to agree the new word(s) and stick with it, or, not sing the song at all, if it is 'Banned'.

That way our club will not get into any trouble, which is the important thing in all of this.

WATP.

It'll never happen with the line about being up to your knees in anyone's blood.

There will be next to no chance of the club/police backing that

[Pure_Quality 3,295]

I was thinking about anti-Catholic rather than anti-Celtic and I mean generally. Tell me a club that has a derogatory song about a rival club's fans that is based on their race/religion. Spurs fans are even getting it in the neck for calling themselves Yids. My mate, a Spurs fan, keeps saying they wont stop them singing it. They will.

Also...in the rest of Britain (outwith Strathclyde/Ulster) people rarely define themselves as Protestant. If asked, they will tell you which sect the adhere to rather than say they are Christian but not Catholic.

Another thing I've noticed. My football supporting mates (and others) will comment/joke about Rangers not playing Catholics (back in the day, and yes, I know the reality of the history); why is it not only playing Protestants? Because that is not how we are perceived.

So you're worried about as being defined as Anti-Catholic yet you're wanting to change the lyrics to include Derrys Walls and the Sash, which some will, wrongly, associate as being the same as fenian.

Still think that us being defined as Anti-Catholic and Celtic being defined as Catholic is absolutely bonkers, and I struggle to correlate that to any experiences of my own, or that of friends/associates/colleagues.

[DAVIE8CH 296]

the next step would be to get a version of the Billy Boys written up approach the club the media any other interested bodies (we know who you are) and say we are going to sing this at our next game either home or away and let the haters hate from there. some of our fans groups have contacts to the media people lets get this done.

[RFC55 108,970]

Any ubs on, what's the view from the group?

[bridgeman 12]

It'll never happen with the line about being up to your knees in anyone's blood.

There will be next to no chance of the club/police backing that

I'll agree with what the Fans Groups come up with mate.

I'd just like to get this song 'Legalised' and back in use for all of our fans to belt out.

Over to the Fan Groups and Club to take it forward, find out what is required and make the changes.

WATP

[RFC55 108,970]

I'll agree with what the Fans Groups come up with mate.

I'd just like to get this song 'Legalised' and back in use for all of our fans to belt out.

Over to the Fan Groups and Club to take it forward, find out what is required and make the changes.

WATP

I just wish it was status quo but it Aint going to happen.

For it to work at games the UB would need to be in on it. I don't know how great their appetite is for an amended version

[RFC Eagle 4,888]

There is a kind of precedent.

Our beloved National Anthem's second verse with the archaic line "rebellious Scot's to crush" (whilst not altered) is no longer sung.

Whilst this is unfortunate in my opinion in the current political climate, I agree (as is mostly usual ) with D'Art.

Time to move on, upward and onward, there's a big world out there to impress with our football and support and our loyalty, and we don't need outdated social reminders of glasgow's old gangland culture to endorse it.

Can we stop peddling the myth of 'rebellious Scots to crush'. The verse was an music hall addition for a couple of months post 1745 and has NEVER formed a part of the official national anthem.

http://www.aforceforgood.org.uk/precious/anthem1

[delamonty 992]

@D'Art. Spot on. Society does evolve and we need to show we evolve with it. While it might be a struggle, we need to show we can embrace change. As others have rightly pointed out, it's the "Hullo Hullo" bit that intimidates while the teams are still in the tunnel.

Great post D'Art

[Guest]

Id prefer the word "celtic" to not be in our anthem.

[bridgeman 12]

I just wish it was status quo but it Aint going to happen.

For it to work at games the UB would need to be in on it. I don't know how great their appetite is for an amended version

Yes, agreed mate.

It's going to take a lot of negotiation between the Fan Groups and Club, but, hopefully the required agreement can be reached.

Then it will be Onward and Upward for us.

WATP

[BlueThunder 8,454]

Some really positive comments in this thread.

Now can someone make it happen please?

[Bad Robot 21,152]

That's your idea of honesty is it? The song is not seen as being about Glasgow gang culture of the thirties even though that was obviously the original inspiration; it's seen as being derogatory to people based on their religion and that is why it, or, in particular, the term 'Fenian', has been outlawed.

I think you are intelligent enough to understand the difference between that and the Tims disgusting support of the Provos. (You'll note that no songs that eulogise loyalist paramilitary groups are under fire).

BTW...people who keep banging on about the origin of the term Fenian. That's cowardly. Fenian is used all the time to mean Catholic; everybody here knows that and you see examples of it all the time. It's like people claiming that the n***er in the woodpile originally meant an insect. That might be true, but so what?

so your telling us the whole song is offensive ??

[To Be A Ranger 4,032]

Great post by D'Art and while I can also agree with Blue Avenger, I think we have to protect OUR club too. My option would be, for what it's worth:

Hello, Hello we are the Billy boys,

Hello, Hello you'll know us by our noise,

We'll sing The Sash and Derry's Walls,

Surrender or you'll die,

...................

Definitely getting there. If we don't change a couple of the words then we continue to heap pressure on the club.

Of course there will always be unjust criticism no matter what we sing but change is good.

Getting the fans to agree is another matter but if it happens get the BF1 boys to belt it out and hold up banners with the words. Then even those journos with selective hearing will know that fenian blood has been exhausted.

[slimjim1690 4,534]

Yes, agreed mate.

It's going to take a lot of negotiation between the Fan Groups and Club, but, hopefully the required agreement can be reached.

Then it will be Onward and Upward for us.

WATP

I really don't want the club involved in this in any way as they could only possibly condone some wishy washy version and even if that, no it has to be a version that gets it right up the mhanks or it won't work, and the club cannot be seen to be a part of that, and in any case does anyone know of any other clubs supporters who go their respective clubs to ok a chant that will annoy the fuck out of the opposition supporters? no neither do I.

All we need is the fan groups to decide a version, I would trust them to eventually get a version and hopefully quickly, that will rile the mhanks while not damaging the club, and no wishy washy version that the club would prefer.

[TheMotor 2,208]

I really don't want the club involved in this in any way as they could only possibly condone some wishy washy version and even if that, no it has to be a version that gets it right up the mhanks or it won't work, and the club cannot be seen to be a part of that, and in any case does anyone know of any other clubs supporters who go their respective clubs to ok a chant that will annoy the fuck out of the opposition supporters? no neither do I.

All we need is the fan groups to decide a version, I would trust them to eventually get a version and hopefully quickly, that will rile the mhanks while not damaging the club, and no wishy washy version that the club would prefer.

I'd hate that to be the limit of our ambition: getting it up the mhanks. That just mirrors the obsession we mock in others of hating us more than taking care of themselves.

I want us to get back an anthem that galvanises every Bear and scares the shit out of the opposition, no matter who they are: celtic, Barcelona, Real madrid, or whoever.

[Blue Avenger 22,567]

It's amazing to think that all the arguments over the meaning of fenian that there's a song that includes the line "and soon they'll be no protestants at all" which is sung regularly by a support I'm Scotland.....

Amazing yes, surprising no.

It is also amazing that 20% of the population have so much influence over the lives of the 80% majority, but not unsurprising in todays climate.

Now the minority are what they are, but it's the appeasers within the chattering classes, the vote catching politicos and our good friends in the mhedia who are the real problem.