Vanguard Bears - just who are they?

[RFC55 108,970]

I respect your opinion , but fair play has long since been missing on here . The PUL posters on here have been ridiculed all to easy on here , that ain't fair play .

Thats bullshit mate. Me and many others have debated points on here but ridiculed i dont think. They may not admit but some of the admins i have met and many of the members are all that way inclined. Some are not but id say the overwhelming majority on here are protestant, unionist loyalists. Or at least a mixture of the 3

[GrimReaper 1]

TBH mate, I see it the other way. I see VB trying to run amok through RM, and force their ideologies and beliefs onto all and sundry, and being intolerant of criticism or questioning,, and I can fully understand why TWB and others would take umbrage at it.

I don't think VB are doing themselves any favours with these constant barrages on RM. They are certainly going down in my estimation, and I suspect in a few other Bears' estimation too - which is a real shame, because as I said earlier, they do a great deal of good, and some of their members on here (eg WVB and Outlaw) have some great things to say.

No-one on VB is trying to force their ideologies and beliefs on anyone, nor are they trying to run amok through RM. Is this comment linked to the OP?

As stated earlier, the OP was not meant to be political or religious, but merely an article written to perhaps dispell a few of the myths surrounding the group. I have seen some really good posts on this thread, but some add absolutely nothing to it.

We, as Rangers fans together; all have an important part to play in the future of our club, whether it be supporting them on match day, buying official club merchandise, or fighting injustice and biased media reporting which is designed to damage our club. Some may not have the stomach to adopt the proactive approach which VB take, some just aren't interested, I respect that. But regardless of how each and every one of us helps the club and in what way, the important thing is we do, and we keep doing it.

[loykore 2]

The bheasts will be laughing at this and cheering on the handwringing bastards on this site who's only aim is to divide us as a support. If these handwringers ain't bheasts in disguise I'll eat my hat. You know who you are.

[The Trooper 3]

Thats bullshit mate. Me and many others have debated points on here but ridiculed i dont think. They may not admit but some of the admins i have met and many of the members are all that way inclined. Some are not but id say the overwhelming majority on here are protestant, unionist loyalists. Or at least a mixture of the 3

It's not bullshit , it happens . And why not admit it ( being that way inclined) ?

[Skelf 1,153]

I knew we should never have got rid of GCL.

Where will it end? when there's only VB posters left here?

Tell you what pal. Your from govan. I'm from govan Meet in the Neptune before next home game and we can all discuss our issues with VB and we'll tell you exactly why GCL was banned

[ZZed 4,510]

Allowing your self to be defined by how others see you (as per your starting statmement) is simply to allow allow others to think for you.

Do we need to be defined by how others perceive us ? Why not enjoy the sport and make your own mind up on religion and politics based on some thought on what is best and not becuase you think you should have certain views because someone else who supports a different team has a different view and you MUST take the opposite view.

It is not simply enough that we are a great football team - with a great sporting history?

please read.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Social_stigma

http://www.healthkno...llness/section3

These same processes are being used on us. Look at reality for what it is. Your ability to mind read is poor and other will make judgements on you no matter what you think. With in the first 2 seconds of seeing someone you have already made judgements about them based on various factors such as clothes, build facial expression and a myriad of other symbols that they are displaying. To deny this is to deny being human.

[ZZed 4,510]

Let me lead you through some basic concepts.

Labelling, this involves giving someone or a group or an institution a negative label. This then gets repeated until accepted by the majority.

The next bit is the people being labelled accept the label and act in certain ways to appease the labellers. This is equal to an admission of some form of guilt. The next bit is to be stigmatised for being in this group of people.

The stigmatised will then be belittled, excluded and punished for what they are now deemed to be.

How do you counter this?

The quicker the better, do not allow the label to take root in the public consciousness. First you use the truth and expose the ones who are trying to label you for what they are doing. If they are using misrepresentation, lies and half truths; this is good as it quickly discredits them as valid and reliable witnesses about you. At the same time you actively put forward the positives about your self as publicly as possible (counter propaganda if you like) and reinforce into the public consciousness that your distracters lie and you have positive values to offer the rest of society. The main weapon to fight this with is the truth about your selves and not to apologise for what you are, because what you are is a force for good.

This causes re-evaluation as how you are publicly perceived and causes the distracters to be more hesitant about their next attack, as if it is lies, or exaggeration, then they will be shown up to be unreliable again. This further compounds their negative image, especially if you are selling your good works for all the public to see..

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

please read.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Social_stigma

http://www.healthkno...llness/section3

These same processes are being used on us. Look at reality for what it is. Your ability to mind read is poor and other will make judgements on you no matter what you think. With in the first 2 seconds of seeing someone you have already made judgements about them based on various factors such as clothes, build facial exp<b></b>ression and a myriad of other symbols that they are displaying. To deny this is to deny being human.

why not try some authorative stuff instead if the first article you find on the Internet that sort of backs up your points. try some of the works by Dennis Tourish on cults - that will help you understand shy lack of external stimulus and is a bad thing and why differing challenging view points is a good thing ( unless you want to be a cult leader)

basically my thoughts are not determined by others perceptions of me but it seems your thoughts are determined by what others think of you ! try some self though - make your own mind up - stop conforming to others definition of you!

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

Let me lead you through some basic concepts.

Labelling, this involves giving someone or a group or an institution a negative label. This then gets repeated until accepted by the majority.

The next bit is the people being labelled accept the label and act in certain ways to appease the labellers. This is equal to an admission of some form of guilt. The next bit is to be stigmatised for being in this group of people.

The stigmatised will then be belittled, excluded and punished for what they are now deemed to be.

How do you counter this?

The quicker the better, do not allow the label to take root in the public consciousness. First you use the truth and expose the ones who are trying to label you for what they are doing. If they are using misrepresentation, lies and half truths; this is good as it quickly discredits them as valid and reliable witnesses about you. At the same time you actively put forward the positives about your self as publicly as possible (counter propaganda if you like) and reinforce into the public consciousness that your distracters lie and you have positive values to offer the rest of society. The main weapon to fight this with is the truth about your selves and not to apologise for what you are, because what you are is a force for good.

This causes re-evaluation as how you are publicly perceived and causes the distracters to be more hesitant about their next attack, as if it is lies, or exaggeration, then they will be shown up to be unreliable again. This further compounds their negative image, especially if you are selling your good works for all the public to see..

lol just read this 2nd paragraph contradicts ypur own stated view point or and conforms my points!

do not conform to what others think you are or you become what they think you are. but one does not need to conform to others pre concieved notions . Try it!

[ZZed 4,510]

why not try some authorative stuff instead if the first article you find on the Internet that sort of backs up your points. try some of the works by Dennis Tourish on cults - that will help you understand shy lack of external stimulus and is a bad thing and why differing challenging view points is a good thing ( unless you want to be a cult leader)

basically my thoughts are not determined by others perceptions of me but it seems your thoughts are determined by what others think of you ! try some self though - make your own mind up - stop conforming to others definition of you!

Nice tactic there, but you have either missed the point or are deliberately avoiding it. I will not swap authors with you but Dennis Tourish is not the fount of all knowledge in this field. If you look at Metacongitions, group dynamics and how to create and shape new beliefs in individuals and in groups you may get where I am coming from.

But let me be clear. I am not a Vanguard Bear, I do not have an anti catholic agenda but I am trying to recognise the reality of what is going on in relation to my team. Part of that is accepting the unpleasant realities of how others are trying shape our image negatively to the public. I do not think the VB are a threat to Rangers in any shape or form and can be a great help to the club by exposing those who are trying to label and stigmatise the club and by extension Rangers supporters.

I am sorry if I have not explained it clearly and I used the 2 web sites as they outline the process clearly without using professional terminology.

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

You've to try and win favour with them - drinks are on you.

:lol:

[ZZed 4,510]

And that reply confirms my belief about you. Thanks.

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

Nice tactic there, but you have either missed the point or are deliberately avoiding it. I will not swap authors with you but Dennis Tourish is not the fount of all knowledge in this field. If you look at Metacongitions, group dynamics and how to create and shape new beliefs in individuals and in groups you may get where I am coming from.

But let me be clear. I am not a Vanguard Bear, I do not have an anti catholic agenda but I am trying to recognise the reality of what is going on in relation to my team. Part of that is accepting the unpleasant realities of how others are trying shape our image negatively to the public. I do not think the VB are a threat to Rangers in any shape or form and can be a great help to the club by exposing those who are trying to label and stigmatise the club and by extension Rangers supporters.

I am sorry if I have not explained it clearly and I used the 2 web sites as they outline the process clearly without using professional terminology.

You started our little mini debate by saying we are defined by what others think - I disagree 100% - others may think I am something - but that does NOT make it so and I do not need to conform to a stereo type just because of someones perceptions of what I am.

Yes on a personal level we all make snap judgements on people - that is a fundemental part of human nature on a 1 - 1 basiis.

But mis-conseptions of group dynamics are just lazy judgements (which you would know if you had taken morethan a superficial look at the subject).

BUT my main point is that Rangers enemies may be Catholic, anti-unionist and anti-loyalist - (although I would say they are mainly either self seeking or incompetent) but even if a as Group, Rangers enemies were Catholic, anti-unionist and anti-loyalist - I do NOT have to be anti-catholic, pro-unionist and pro-loyalist to defend the club.AllI need to be is a Rangers supporter!

[outlaw69uk 123]

That is something the VB could be doing to help, if they have proof of any taigs on this site give it to Admin, and get them banned.

Really? It was made known about cart man/token over a year ago.

My issue with it is that certain posters are clearly breaking, or in fact, being allowed to break rm forum rules. Others are banned outright without a warning. Therein lies the problem. Quite clearly admin, or some of admin have one rule for some, and others for the rest, not so cleverly disguised under the mantle of free speech! Free speak is great, but rules should be there for a reason, and nobody should be above them

You have to bear in mind when I joined this forum, and, if you were about at the time, the reason I stopped posting and joined vb. seems a similar thing is happening again, or still.

[outlaw69uk 123]

...because it's not my site and I do believe in fair play.

Yet happy for people to break the rules with impunity?

[outlaw69uk 123]

Tell you what pal. Your from govan. I'm from govan Meet in the Neptune before next home game and we can all discuss our issues with VB and we'll tell you exactly why GCL was banned

Make it an open invite mate

Am sure someone will decide that's threatening behaviour haha

[Edmiston Drive 3,846]

Tell you what pal. Your from govan. I'm from govan Meet in the Neptune before next home game and we can all discuss our issues with VB and we'll tell you exactly why GCL was banned

You in Benidorm bud

[Edmiston Drive 3,846]

Make it an open invite mate

Am sure someone will decide that's threatening behaviour haha

How many of you guys are in Benidorm

[Dennis 1,011]

Folk that leave the site in a hissy fit, then come back because someone breaks RMs rules makes me laugh.

[theiconicman 2,991]

Quite agree with much of that

The thing I wonder, is, if vb or similar release a statement or arrange some form of action, aimed at helping the club, do some people think that by being supportive of that means being supportive of religious or political agendas? Since that doesn't have to be the case

I think the sensitive souls like me would find it hard to get behind a VB action because of the overt PUL association. I have lots of sympathy for PUL, I'm Unionist and come from a Protestant heritage, but I really hate what religion does to our country.

I'd like to hate Celtic fans for 90 mins for the simple fact they are our great rivals, without me being tarred with some sectarian bigot label, which is what religion has done.

For me, the greatest thing Protestantism and the Reformation did was set us free and allow us to think for ourselves. I see the natural evolution of that as leaving religion behind totally.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

A lot of people seem to be missing the point, perhaps deliberately, Vanguard Bears Forum is not an open or public forum.

Its a forum for its members .

The good book says "You shall know them by their deeds"

I think Vanguard Bears record in that respect speaks for itself.

[theiconicman 2,991]

Edit: I think I read too much into it.

[Chef 436]

I certainly hope twb does not get banned due to pressure on a forum from what looks like many posters who don't post regular like twb.

Not gcl part two Is it, who's next?

[theiconicman 2,991]

The problem with banning the likes of GCL is that you end up only with posters who agree with you and that is not a healthy position to be in.

“Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.”

or

“Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things."

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

The problem with banning the likes of GCL is that you end up only with posters who agree with you and that is not a healthy position to be in.

“Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.”

or

“Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things."

There is a difference between banning someone who disagrees with you and banning someone who deliberately tries to belittle other posters constantly or who persistently attempts to spoil threads.