Courtyard Bear 41,357 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Do more than win the league? like getting to the final of the Ramsdens and semi final of the Scottish Cup? or should he be winning the London Marathon and Grand National.Look, we're all Rangers supporters and want nothing but the best for and from our club. That is a given. But, we are supporters and, much as we are loathe to admit it we don't have all the answers, in fact many of us don't even understand the question I understand that there are entrenched views about the manager, all I will say is that our supporters, those who know so much about football, tactics, players, systems, style ad-nauseoum stood together at Ibrox and chanted Ally Ally get to Fuck.- they were wrong then and I believe they are wrong now.That doesn't mean I'm not a Rangers supporter - it just means that I think a little bit differently to you about the manager.Why do you always claim winning a SEMI PRO league with full time international players as some sort of achievement?Final of the Ramsden Cup playing the same Semi Pro teams and still lost the final in one of the worst performances I've seen from a Rangers team, semi of the SC with the probably easiest run to the semi in cup history and still took 2 attempts to get rid of one of the worst teams in Scotland in the quarters.A blind and damaging approach to looking after his squad to try and go unbeaten against those same semi pros, which has left our team short of the very players he brought in to do this very job for our one real test of the season, great management there from Ally. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creampuff 22,628 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 So to guarantee promotion our manager needed players 3 divisions higher in quality?Doesn't say much for the manager.I'm not saying that he needed them, I'm saying that the cost of having them was far less than the potential cost of not being promoted. Essentially there was no point in not reducing that risk to as small as possible. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
theiconicman 2,991 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 There's none so blind."There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know"However, you start with a fallacy that I'm ignoring what I already know.The OP asked why those of us who support McCoist, do. I gave my reasons. I don't deny the football is poor, or that the players are uninterested. I've seen good football under McCoist, when we were in the SPL and in the lower leagues. I know the standard of footballer we have is poor.McCulloch, Foster, Moshni, Faure, Perry, Hegarty are all poor defenders, only Wallace gets pass marks. I don't blame McCoist for signing them, he got what he could.We have a decent midfield, unfortunately they are all attacking minded. Black (often credited as 'enforcer' his best performances for Hearts was attacking and crossing balls) Law, Aird, Macleod, Templeton don't do defending.Up front we have Daly to batter teams who defend 11 behind the ball. Little and Clark are good but need space to operate, space teams don't give us.Don't ask a man's opinion if all you really want to do is rant about your own and call them deluded for not sharing your hatred of McCoist. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Getstiffed 8,863 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 I'm not saying that he needed them, I'm saying that the cost of having them was far less than the potential cost of not being promoted. Essentially there was no point in not reducing that risk to as small as possible.C'mon mate, you seriously think that we needed Shiels, Temps, Cribrari, Peralta, Smith and Foster to get promoted?3 of them have been squad players at best and the first 2 have been injured half the time if not more.4 or 5 good lower league pros at 1/3rd the cost would have done nicely.Ally could have sold the support on this no problems. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
quinty 1,445 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Why do you always claim winning a SEMI PRO league with full time international players as some sort of achievement?Final of the Ramsden Cup playing the same Semi Pro teams and still lost the final in one of the worst performances I've seen from a Rangers team, semi of the SC with the probably easiest run to the semi in cup history and still took 2 attempts to get rid of one of the worst teams in Scotland in the quarters.A blind and damaging approach to looking after his squad to try and go unbeaten against those same semi pros, which has left our team short of the very players he brought in to do this very job for our one real test of the season, great management there from Ally.Because it is an achievement - what would it have been if we had failed to win the league? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creampuff 22,628 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 C'mon mate, you seriously think that we needed Shiels, Temps, Cribrari, Peralta, Smith and Foster to get promoted?3 of them have been squad players at best and the first 2 have been injured half the time if not more.4 or 5 good lower league pros at 1/3rd the cost would have done nicely.Ally could have sold the support on this no problems.Given how the fans have called for his head based on quality of football with these players, I doubt they'd be happy with a lower calibre of player. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Courtyard Bear 41,357 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 I'm not saying that he needed them, I'm saying that the cost of having them was far less than the potential cost of not being promoted. Essentially there was no point in not reducing that risk to as small as possible.That's a fair point, but then you have a lot of fans using the 2 nailed on promotions because of the massive gulf as some sort of claim that Ally is doing a good job. When in actual fact he is under achieving with the squad he has. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Courtyard Bear 41,357 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Because it is an achievement - what would it have been if we had failed to win the league?We were never going to not win the league with that gulf between the players, the last 2 leagues have been over before they even started. An achievement is doing something over and above the very least that you can do. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Getstiffed 8,863 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Given how the fans have called for his head based on quality of football with these players, I doubt they'd be happy with a lower calibre of player.Its not just the quality of football though mate. Its the quality of football considering what we are paying for it. If we were paying peanuts and getting monkeys I think most fans could swallow that, especially if it was evident the money saved was going in a kity for the manager to spend when we really need it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creampuff 22,628 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Its not just the quality of football though mate. Its the quality of football considering what we are paying for it. If we were paying peanuts and getting monkeys I think most fans could swallow that, especially if it was evident the money saved was going in a kity for the manager to spend when we really need it.Yeah I'd say that's a pretty fair point. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
quinty 1,445 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 That's a fair point, but then you have a lot of fans using the 2 nailed on promotions because of the massive gulf as some sort of claim that Ally is doing a good job.When in actual fact he is under achieving with the squad he has.'under achieving' would be failing to win promotion - he has not under achieved in that respect. What you are saying is that the way he has 'achieved' is not to your liking. That is a different argument. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogzy 31,195 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 A manager that can do more than win a semi pro league with a full time team of international players would be good for starters.a FULL team of international players aye? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Courtyard Bear 41,357 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 a FULL team of international players aye?Ok I stretched that a bit, only about 8 of the 11 could you class as international. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adoniram 1,919 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Yeah I'd say that's a pretty fair point.Beat me to it. To me that was what the drop down the divisions was going to entail.I was more than happy to accept a lower standard of player in a horses for courses scenario. Improving as we rose up the divisions.It hasn't happened and we are where we are.Sunday against Raith exposed all his faults and those of the players he is keeping faith with.He couldn't justify a 4-5-1 set up (and still hasn't). His players YET AGAIN were one paced, pedestrian and lacking fight.His substitutions and tactical changes baffled everyone and i have yet to see anyone try and justify them..or at least point out from a tactical point of view why they were the correct ones.This has been happening for close on 3 years now so it's not a knee jerk reaction to one embarrassing capitulation is it? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogzy 31,195 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Ok I stretched that a bit, only about 8 of the 11 could you class as international.Could you? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonkeyJug 51 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 And exactly how can you 'guarantee' that? By all means think it, propose it, argue it - but guarantee it? Come on!It's simple - 'common sense' guarantees it... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bawsburst 1,381 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Winning a one horse race is no achievement in any walk of life, ............unless of course you are a horse. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
quinty 1,445 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 It's simple - 'common sense' guarantees it...you obviously don't understand what 'guarantee' or 'common sense' means. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
quinty 1,445 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Winning a one horse race is no achievement in any walk of life, ............unless of course you are a horse. What about if you are an ass? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Courtyard Bear 41,357 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 'under achieving' would be failing to win promotion - he has not under achieved in that respect. What you are saying is that the way he has 'achieved' is not to your liking. That is a different argument.Round in circles here, my idea of achieving something must be very different from yours.Doing the bare minimum that you need to do is not achieving. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Courtyard Bear 41,357 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Could you?Bell, Jig, Wallace, Black, Little, Sheils, Daly. Ok 6 and that's before you start on the U21's Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bawsburst 1,381 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 What about if you are an ass?You would win by a distance..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogzy 31,195 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Bell, Jig, Wallace, Black, Little, Sheils, Daly.Ok 6 and that's before you start on the U21'sHow many international starts has bell had?When was the last time jig played internationally?Wallace I will give you.how often does Black get a game for Scotland?Shiels I'll give you.Daly fair enough.you can add peralta to that list.Out of our stadard 1st team, there are only a couple who can be classed as international, and one of those is peralta, and noone wants him here Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adoniram 1,919 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 How many international starts has bell had?When was the last time jig played internationally?Wallace I will give you.how often does Black get a game for Scotland?Shiels I'll give you.Daly fair enough.you can add peralta to that list.Out of our stadard 1st team, there are only a couple who can be classed as international, and one of those is peralta, and noone wants him here How many of the Raith Rovers team were internationalists at any level Gogzy?This argument (like others) works both ways. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackandra 732 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Another question. Does anyone think Ally would be offered another management job when he leaves/is sacked?I dont. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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