Is Auchenhowie really producing no talent? Well, no but it makes for an easy story

[Junior Soprano 22,428]

Just now, gsa said:

All 6 of them?

They all played youth football with Rangers though? As fat as I'm aware none were over 16 when they signed with us?

They were all 16 when they signed. 

I seen some cunt saying we produced beerman. Pffffffftttt

[gsa 3,906]

3 minutes ago, Junior Soprano said:

They were all 16 when they signed. 

I seen some cunt saying we produced beerman. Pffffffftttt

I didn't realise that. I'd thought McCormack, Hutton and Burke had been with us as youths. 

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

12 hours ago, The Dude said:

 

Ever since it was opened in 2001, Auchenhowie (or Murray Park) has been viewed as Rangers’ own production line of young Scottish talent. With a handful of exceptions there haven’t been too many unqualified success stories, although there are plenty of ex-Auchenhowie hopefuls around the leagues in both Scotland & England, but recent suggestions that there is no talent coming through at the £14million facility are well wide of the mark.

Read more:  http://www.gotthebattlefeveron.com/2017/4/16/15315662/is-auchenhowie-really-not-producing-any-talent-well-no-but-it-makes-for-an-easy-story

Good read - and criticism based on league position is, in my opinion,one of the things wrong all over Scottish football - a concentration on winning rather than talent development - yes a winning mentality is important but that can be taught by winning your individual battles, 

we look forward to these players coming through but as a fan base are then highly critical of every mistake they make. 

Anyway good to  see someone writing positively about the club. Good job. 

[Blue Avenger 22,567]

Yeah, the next Jim Baxter or Willie Henderson will be soon be off the conveyor belt, not. Not even in the next 20 years.

We neither know how to identify talent nor hone it. Our record speaks for itself and tbh, no first team manager actually gives a fuck. MW gave it large on youth and their development. Every team playing the same system. and every sucker bought it, hook line and sinker. Well how many did he pick and where is MW now? Sent packing as a total wanker.

Oh I forgot, head of youth is a top bloke. Giving it large on how wonderfull it all is. Well he would wouldn't he. The gullibles buying that one too! Another fucking sfa clone. Yes it is all good, heading in the right direction, just like MW and King!

Such is life indeed.

[TheLawMan 6,240]

"I'd be absolutely stunned if Bates makes an appearance for the first team. There's probably 6 or 7 central defenders ahead of him just now. We're not just writing the boy off on the basis we don't like him. We've watched him in the U20s and have formed an opinion on that, Crazy, I know."

This was your opinion on Bates 3 months ago. For the record and having seen him in the last 3 games, I think your assertion above is spot on.

I don't think though it squares with how he fits into the narrative of the article.

Auchenhowie from a Youth point of view has been utter shite. It's only use is as a Training facility.

[miracle 7,833]

A fair few Scotland internationals have come through Auchenhowie since it was built; McGregor, Hutton, Adam, Ferguson, Burke, McCormack.. Scottish players just aren't that good anymore and the idea we can suddenly become the Ajax of the North because we have a training ground is fanciful to say the least.

[j1mgg 3,766]

It also need to make the club money a long with producing a player every two seasons that goes into the first team. It seems to be a very every project to create footballers for everyone else.

[BradPitt 3]

what's the problem with Scottish player development though? hard to develop real top end stars in a small country, but seems like it would reasonable to have a Genk or PSV level talent pipeline.

[magic8ball 27,901]

18 hours ago, The Dude said:

The original column in the ET claimed there were no kids ready to step up and no sign of that changing any time soon. Having seen first hand the changes that the academy has undergone since I started covering them in 2014 to now and the massive improvement in all round standard of player, it's nonsense.

The problem I've noticed with our youth system of the years has been the lack of consistency of the the way they ideology has been implemented 

No head of youth has stuck around long enough .I believe we need somebody to stick around for 8 to 10 years for the best results to be achieved 

By best results I mean 1 player a year to make 1st team standard .a lot of folk seem to expect us to produce half a dozen or even more players capable of holding down a first team place .this is totally impossible 

If we take a first team squad of say 25 players .that squad is made up of players between say 20 to 35 yrs old .using basic arithmetic that suggests 1 or 2 players of each age throughout the squad .

I do feel very positive about our current group though .a couple of years ago I heard Neil warnock talking about the youth set up .he was up here on holiday and went to auchenhowie and said that our under 16s group was the best group he had ever seen in the game .not just technically but in attitude .there is point having all the ability in the world if you don't have the right attitude to use it 

 

Maybe in 2 or 3 years this batch will beat the law of averages and have 2 or 3 playing in the first team regularly 

[graeme_4 34,663]

Decent article, but has a bit of blue tinted specs IMO. More predictions/projections, than what has actually been produced. 

Would be interesting to see a 'where are they now' type of article for people that have come through the system.

And I'd say anyone that's been with us from 16/17 can be classed as someone we've 'developed'. 

[TheLawMan 6,240]

3 hours ago, miracle said:

A fair few Scotland internationals have come through Auchenhowie since it was built; McGregor, Hutton, Adam, Ferguson, Burke, McCormack.. Scottish players just aren't that good anymore and the idea we can suddenly become the Ajax of the North because we have a training ground is fanciful to say the least.

Ferguson was already club captain before Auchenhowie opened.  McGregor had been with us for 3 years before it opened and made his debut some 9 months after it opened.  Chris Burke is similar in that he was only at Auchenhowie for 9 months before making his debut.  Hutton was also with us prior to its opening also making his debut in 2002 a year after it was opened.

Charlie Adam joined us when he was 17 and was immediately out on loan to a handful of clubs.

That leaves us with Ross McCormack and unless im mistaken, he is the only player who was a true product of Auchenhowie who went on to become a Scottish Internationalist. (im sure there must be a few more but i genuinely cant think of any)

As others have said, the article talks about the promise of the current crop rather than actually look at the facts.  The journalist is 100% right.  Our youth development is an absolute disaster.

[The Dude 20,026]

1 hour ago, TheLawMan said:

Ferguson was already club captain before Auchenhowie opened.  McGregor had been with us for 3 years before it opened and made his debut some 9 months after it opened.  Chris Burke is similar in that he was only at Auchenhowie for 9 months before making his debut.  Hutton was also with us prior to its opening also making his debut in 2002 a year after it was opened.

Charlie Adam joined us when he was 17 and was immediately out on loan to a handful of clubs.

That leaves us with Ross McCormack and unless im mistaken, he is the only player who was a true product of Auchenhowie who went on to become a Scottish Internationalist. (im sure there must be a few more but i genuinely cant think of any)

As others have said, the article talks about the promise of the current crop rather than actually look at the facts.  The journalist is 100% right.  Our youth development is an absolute disaster.

The journalist claimed there were no kids in the system currently who would be able to make to step up. I absolutely agree that in the past it hasn't brought the rewards expected but to claim there isn't any talented youths in the Academy just now is nonsense. 

Danny Wilson is the most recent Auchenhowie graduate to win a full Scotland cap.

[The Dude 20,026]

3 hours ago, graeme_4 said:

Decent article, but has a bit of blue tinted specs IMO. More predictions/projections, than what has actually been produced. 

Would be interesting to see a 'where are they now' type of article for people that have come through the system.

And I'd say anyone that's been with us from 16/17 can be classed as someone we've 'developed'. 

That's something that's coming in the next few weeks. You'd be amazed just how many ex-Auchenhowie kids are dotted around the leagues.

The article was was always going to be predictions as it was off the back of claims there is no talent coming through just now.

[Reformation Bear 6,453]

It's there for the specific benefit of Rangers and for the general benefit of Scottish Football.   Players who've made there way through Auchenhowie but who have never made it into the Rangers first team on a regular basis or who have never earned the Club £Ms in transfer fees, but who ply their trade in the game with other clubs doesn't, imo, count as a measure of success for Auchenhowie, or a measure of it being an enterprise that delivers value for the Club.   It holds out the prospect of delivery but until prospecting for talented young footballers actually turns into goldmines of first team success in winning leagues and cups then Auchenhowie youth development remains only a gleam of hope which consumes money.   Is it 'there' yet in delivering success in the form of a core of first team players?   No. 

For me proof that the youth development programme at Auchenhowie is when an established pipeline of players move out of youth development and into regular first team places and where an Auchenhowie-core of that first team squad is winning leagues, cups and doing well in Europe.   Then it justifies its cost of set up and operation.   Until then its an investment (or maybe its a gamble) on something the Club has to have because the chance can't be taken that if you don't have it we will risk missing out on getting the next big Scottish superstar players.   It has to have that sort of development set up and all the costs that go with it because not having it makes the Club look like shunning progressive modernism and new ways of thinking and of failing to invest in young footballers.     

It generates costs.......but whether the value it produces is worth the costs is questionable.  It's like having a costly R&D department that that doesn't bring forward products that deliver (enough) success or make (enough) money.    Sooner or later if financial times get tighter, or there is a prolonged lack of first team success in winning a title harder and more persistent questions are bound to be asked about whether the money spent on youth development would be better allocated to the transfer budget to get better quality first team players.         

Will be interested to see how many of the Development squad this season make it into Pedro's first team squad for next season.   

[Turnberry18 3,204]

This thread raises an interesting question: what difference has Auchenhowie made to what we had before?  Probably in terms of fitness then the players are fitter now; I'm not sure it has made a great deal of difference beyond that.

[ForeverAndEver 71,657]

13 hours ago, gsa said:

I didn't realise that. I'd thought McCormack, Hutton and Burke had been with us as youths. 

I'm positive Burke did, sure he was in that 'Blue Heaven' programme.

[Elfideldo 4,416]

In my view any player who's first contract for Rangers was a professional one cannot be considered a youth product.

So Beerman, McKay, Aird, Little are not youth products in my opinion.

McGregor, Hutton, Adam, Ferguson, Burke, McCormack all would be considered youth products although most were before Auchenhowie opened. They would have played youth games at Maryhill Science Park and before that Lochburn Park (home of Maryhill Juniors).

3 hours ago, TheLawMan said:

Charlie Adam joined us when he was 17 and was immediately out on loan to a handful of clubs.

Charlie Adam was no older than 15, may have been 14, when he joined Rangers, having previously been with Celtic. He was 16 when he scored two goals in 2002 youth cup final aganst Ayr United, he had already been at Rangers a while.

1 hour ago, The Dude said:

Would be interesting to see a 'where are they now' type of article for people that have come through the system.

I've published a few of this type of article on the blog over the years. There are over 20 players playing in Premier League, Championship or have moved south for decent fees and that is just the ones Sinclair released in recent years. 

First link is all the youth players to graduate and play in 1st team since Auchenhowie opened (it was published 5 years ago). The others are about a couple of foreign imports and are were also published some time ago.

I also did one on ex rangers we came up against in Leagues 1, 2 & Championship which are on the blog somewhere.

https://rfcyouths.wordpress.com/2012/10/03/2672/

https://rfcyouths.wordpress.com/2010/01/01/where-are-they-now-adda-djeziri-barjam-fetai/

https://rfcyouths.wordpress.com/2013/01/10/daniele-fortunato/

 

 

[MasterD 7,436]

53 minutes ago, Elfideldo said:

In my view any player who's first contract for Rangers was a professional one cannot be considered a youth product.

So Beerman, McKay, Aird, Little are not youth products in my opinion.

McGregor, Hutton, Adam, Ferguson, Burke, McCormack all would be considered youth products although most were before Auchenhowie opened. They would have played youth games at Maryhill Science Park and before that Lochburn Park (home of Maryhill Juniors).

Charlie Adam was no older than 15, may have been 14, when he joined Rangers, having previously been with Celtic. He was 16 when he scored two goals in 2002 youth cup final aganst Ayr United, he had already been at Rangers a while.

I've published a few of this type of article on the blog over the years. There are over 20 players playing in Premier League, Championship or have moved south for decent fees and that is just the ones Sinclair released in recent years. 

First link is all the youth players to graduate and play in 1st team since Auchenhowie opened (it was published 5 years ago). The others are about a couple of foreign imports and are were also published some time ago.

I also did one on ex rangers we came up against in Leagues 1, 2 & Championship which are on the blog somewhere.

https://rfcyouths.wordpress.com/2012/10/03/2672/

https://rfcyouths.wordpress.com/2010/01/01/where-are-they-now-adda-djeziri-barjam-fetai/

https://rfcyouths.wordpress.com/2013/01/10/daniele-fortunato/

 

 

From a Charlie Adam Q&A...

1. Which clubs did you play for in your youth career?

"I was part of the youth set up at Dundee from 1999-2003. I then signed a youth contract with Rangers when I turned 17."

[gsa 3,906]

2 hours ago, ForeverAndEver said:

I'm positive Burke did, sure he was in that 'Blue Heaven' programme.

He was. 

[shaka 1,681]

We must be doing something right, as I'm sure I read that the Portuguese player Eder was sending his son to join our youths rather than any of the Portuguese ones. I think the changes made at Auchenhowie will only start showing results in the next few years.

[Jimfanciesthedude 24,608]

arguably our best time for youth is when eck was here and had to bring them in due to financial constraints, hutton, mcgregor (albeit promoted then loaned out) adam, burke, hughes, malcolm.ross etc, but even then a lot were either in terrible rangers sides or supplemented with big money signings to help them blend in

arguably our worst period of youth development was either of walters reigns and wee dicks time here, money money money was the name of the game under they two gaffers, the only young players brought through were through necessity other than ability barring barry ferguson

as for the current lot there just now, are any f them good enough? probably not that many if any will be good enough to play consistently in a title winning team, maybe a few would be good enough to be squad fillers but i doubt we have the next barry ferguson type youth player just waiting for his first team shot

[jackrfc95 4,255]

It depends on whether you define success as having a decent career or having a decent Rangers career. There's been a few who have went on to have half decent careers but not as many as there should of been having a successful Rangers careers IMO.

Off the top of my head the only ones I'd consider to have had good Rangers careers are McGregor, Hutton and Adam. Then there are others who have done a decent job over the years such as Ross, Malcom, Hughes and Burke.

 

[Elfideldo 4,416]

24 minutes ago, MasterD said:

From a Charlie Adam Q&A...

1. Which clubs did you play for in your youth career?

"I was part of the youth set up at Dundee from 1999-2003. I then signed a youth contract with Rangers when I turned 17."

He is possibly reffering to his first profssional contract. 

I can assure you I saw Charlie Adam play for Rangers when he was 15. Previously he was part of Celtic's Dundee group along with Ross Wallace, Michael Gardyne  etc.  I was certainly at New Douglas Park and saw him score twice as a 16 year old in Rangers 4-2 win over Ayr United in 2002 Youth Cup Final. This report on SFA website confirms it, Scott Chaplain who scored one of Ayr's goals had previously been at Rangers. Another 1798 people who were there that day can confirm it.

http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/scottish_fa_news.cfm?page=1961&newsCategoryID=3&newsID=746

[Elfideldo 4,416]

The big problem with the youth system in recent years can be summed up in two words JIMMY SINCLAIR.

In his 8 1/2 years in charge all but one player that made the first team were either there before he came or were recruited from other clubs on a pro contract at Rangers. The only player he signed either from boys club or for a development fee to play 1st team football was Andy Murdoch (who came from Boys club football).

He paid development fees for around 30 - 13 -15 year olds, most of whom were not considered good enough to sign a pro contract. Only 6 of these players are still in professional football.

During the same period he released around the same number of  players, mostly deemed "too wee". Ten are playing Premier League, Ten in the Championship, six in League 1 & 2 and five or six who have moved south for decent fees.

I could list the players from both groups.

He should have been sacked when Rangers were fined £25,000 because he made an illegal approach for a Kilmarnock player. A player that he then decided was not good enough for a pro contract two years later.

A clear out was required, 1997's is the final year for U20''s. Only Ryan Hardie remains from Sinky's 1997 team, Jordan Thompson and Amin Abaradan are 1997's but have been recruited since.

[ForeverAndEver 71,657]

4 minutes ago, Elfideldo said:

The big problem with the youth system in recent years can be summed up in two words JIMMY SINCLAIR.

In his 8 1/2 years in charge all but one player that made the first team were either there before he came or were recruited from other clubs on a pro contract at Rangers. The only player he signed either from boys club or for a development fee to play 1st team football was Andy Murdoch (who came from Boys club football).

He paid development fees for around 30 - 13 -15 year olds, most of whom were not considered good enough to sign a pro contract. Only 6 of these players are still in professional football.

During the same period he released around the same number of  players, mostly deemed "too wee". Ten are playing Premier League, Ten in the Championship, six in League 1 & 2 and five or six who have moved south for decent fees.

I could list the players from both groups.

He should have been sacked when Rangers were fined £25,000 because he made an illegal approach for a Kilmarnock player. A player that he then decided was not good enough for a pro contract two years later.

A clear out was required, 1997's is the final year for U20''s. Only Ryan Hardie remains from Sinky's 1997 team, Jordan Thompson and Amin Abaradan are 1997's but have been recruited since.

Who are the ones in the Premier League mate?