Administration thread

[TheLawMan 6,240]

are you saying that with a potential company busting tax bill about to be handed out to us, ticketus were still willing to give us 20million on the basis of the clubs word

I guess we will see jim. Do you think Craig Whyte has £20m to pay to ticketus tomorrow ?

[nelsonRFC82 305]

Alarm bells ringing with the PAYE/VAT news.

Mind is spinning and have gone back & fore on views a few times trying to get my head round things. I don't want to be too forthright in my views as still a lot of unknowns. You may well read IF a few times in the following!

My first view on hearing the admin news, was that we had lost the tax case, or at least it had become known we were going to lose. At this, I could not blame Whyte, wasn't his EBT scheme and although he knew about it when coming in, I had always though admin was the only likely plan upon a negative outcome. He appeared to be trying to safeguard clubs assets in this event.

It now looks that admin is due to running costs out of control and failure to pay PAYE/VAT. Don't know how this can possibly be good news? Some have said "why waste money on tax prior to admin". I would say firstly that I want a custodian of our club who will run it the right way, deliberately not handing over PAYE/VAT is not the right way, yes we have done likewise with the EBT but I think that was a genuine attempt to legally avoid tax but poorly administered this cannot be considered the same. Not to mention, how the fuck can we expect to negotiate with HMRC re the tax case while all the time failing to pay PAYE/VAT?

If not paid, where has this money gone? Again some have said "stuck offshore to fund a new Rangers". I would say, if Whyte has laundered money offshore (willfully not paying tax and moving money out of a business must be laundering?) and risking jail then he is doing it for his own ends and certainly not to bring back as funds for the club post admin!

As I understand it, we have costs of £45m and income of £35m as standard. If we get CL, we probably make a profit, if we get EL we probably make a slight loss and with no euro income we run at significant loss. This obviously needs to be addressed. However in a year where we got knocked out of Europe early but have made profit on player sales and willfully withheld £9m in tax...how could we run out of money?

I know the taxman has gone after us like a dog wi two cocks, but if faced by one board who employ a scheme to avoid/evade tax and then replaced by an owner refusing to pay PAYE/VAT, can hardly expect to be flavour of the month there. This sort of attitude may have HMRC doing all they can to block our CVA and could finish the club! My hope now, is maybe we get investors who are willing to really put things right at the club and who make a genuine attempt to play ball with HMRC they may look on things more favourably?

Not totally up on insolvency law, can HMRC fight our CVA all the way if that is their will?

Really believe we need a consortium, to offer a diverse range of investors rather than being answerable to one man. Would actually hope to also allow for some sort of scheme for fans investments.

Honestly a very worried bear right now.

[TheLawMan 6,240]

Nevertheless, a sad day for all, do not believe the media about liquidation. This will not be an issue. We will continue trading and our finances will be eventually be sorted out.

12 months ago people were saying:

do not believe the media about the tax case. This will not be an issue. We will continue trading and our finances will be eventually be sorted out.

6 months ago people were saying:

do not believe the media about administration. This will not be an issue. We will continue trading and our finances will be eventually be sorted out.

Though i certainly dont believe the media, liquidation is a short step away

[Agoram1 42]

My understanding, though im only fairly certain, is that we really cant come out of administration before we get the big tax bill. As they are not technically a creditor as of today then it wouldnt count and if we came out of admin end of Feb then got the tax case result in March, then we would be straight back in again....only deeper.

Willing to be corrected on that with evidence though

Okay.

So what ur saying is it still comes down to the big tax case. If we lose that and are hit with a huge bill, the can shut

us down, as it seems very likely the won't do a deal.

What was the importance of us appointing the administrator as opposed to one being court appointed? It seems it makes no difference.

[gunslinger 270]

liquidation is almost very much a possibility under whyte.

[Jimfanciesthedude 24,545]

I guess we will see jim. Do you think Craig Whyte has £20m to pay to ticketus tomorrow ?

i know not enough of whyte or any of his companies wether it is a burger van or a multi billion pound a year company

but our tax problems were clear from AJ's about the gorliia in the room, if i was the MD of ticketus i wouldnt touch rangers with a bargepole UNLESS there was some form of guarantee

if whyte WAS to use rangers and ticketus were daft enough to give it, they would then become a bigger creditor than whyte would they not?

i just think there is more to this administration than meets the eye mate, im not saying whyte is an angel, but i feel that there is an ulterior motive than to simply only pay a fraction of our debts

[Jimfanciesthedude 24,545]

liquidation is almost very much a possibility under whyte.

of course, we are relying on HMRC settling, that would have been the case with Lloyds/SDM in charge or Whyte surely

[kanjo 26,328]

I could see HMRC accepting a deal of around 6p to the £. They know the situation and..as shown with Leeds, they may be forced to deal instead of being the ones forcing.

[RFCstuart 317]

This is honestly all getting a bit too much for me

[Gash07 26]

Listen, I'm all for unity and getting behind the club. However someone has to tell me who the enemy that we are uniting against is.

Tax case undecided and legal advice still favourable, 24 mil borrowed from ticketus, 5.5 mil from jela sale, no accounts or agm, no paye tax being paid since takeover and yet here we are, ready to be torn apart, in administration.

Where is the enemy?

Alarm bells are ringing loudly.

[PaulRFC1 115]

If we got a CVA before the tax case verdict would HMRC have to accept the settlement agreed? say 10p to the pound.

[54andcounting 627]

This is honestly all getting a bit too much for me

This (may) cheer you up a bit.

The Tannadice club are due just under £100,000 from crisis club Rangers from their recent Scottish Cup tie (Dundee Courier).

Knock us out of the cup, get it up you then

[bluebloodbear 13]

Listen, I'm all for unity and getting behind the club. However someone has to tell me who the enemy that we are uniting against is.

Tax case undecided and legal advice still favourable, 24 mil borrowed from ticketus, 5.5 mil from jela sale, no accounts or agm, no paye tax being paid since takeover and yet here we are, ready to be torn apart, in administration.

Where is the enemy?

Alarm bells are ringing loudly.

Could not have put it better myself.

I have no fucking clue what the hell is going on, but I am worried.

[Smile 26,610]

This (may) cheer you up a bit.

The Tannadice club are due just under £100,000 from crisis club Rangers from their recent Scottish Cup tie (Dundee Courier).

Knock us out of the cup, get it up you then

They deserve no money after the ticket stub fiasco.

[Davy 68]

Tax case undecided and legal advice still favourable

Can we afford to take the chance though? If we lose that case we're up shit creak. And if we win that case, they'll appeal, so we're not quite out of shit creak!

[Jimfanciesthedude 24,545]

I could see HMRC accepting a deal of around 6p to the £. They know the situation and..as shown with Leeds, they may be forced to deal instead of being the ones forcing.

6p in the pound, fuck me whyte would bite their hand off, so would the administrators, hell HMRC could win a 100million settlement at that rate

so i think the rate will be higher, could be anything around the 20% mark, they have taken the case this far and are looking to make a statement of intent

[kanjo 26,328]

6p in the pound, fuck me whyte would bite their hand off, so would the administrators, hell HMRC could win a 100million settlement at that rate

so i think the rate will be higher, could be anything around the 20% mark, they have taken the case this far and are looking to make a statement of intent

Fair enough, though i was always under the impression that because HMRC didn't get their way today, they are as it stands unsecured creditors, so if we can work a deal on a CVA of upto 75% then HMRC will have little/no choice.

If we win our tax case and HMRC "appeal appeal and appeal" then Rangers can goto the court of session to counter-appeal under the Protection from Abuse (Scotland) Act 2001.

Why that was overlooked i don't know, though it'll be interesting to see where we go.

[Madina 3,812]

Just watched the True Blue DVD, sad as fuck seeing all those great players and great victories knowing it might be a while before we experience them again. Still can't believe what's happened over the last 36 hours or so

[Jimfanciesthedude 24,545]

Fair enough, though i was always under the impression that because HMRC didn't get their way today, they are as it stands unsecured creditors, so if we can work a deal on a CVA of upto 75% then HMRC will have little/no choice.

If we win our tax case and HMRC "appeal appeal and appeal" then Rangers can goto the court of session to counter-appeal under the Protection from Abuse (Scotland) Act 2001.

Why that was overlooked i don't know, though it'll be interesting to see where we go.

we need HMRC to agree to the CVA deal though to get it ratified im sure,

[RFC55 108,934]

When you're gone noone will shed a tear, but when it happens all the joyous Bhoys will roar and cheer!

Anyone for jelly and icecream

You dont half like jelly and ice cream, not enough at Phils mass tho eh?

[Jimfanciesthedude 24,545]

When you're gone noone will shed a tear, but when it happens all the joyous Bhoys will roar and cheer!

Anyone for jelly and icecream

another kiddyfiddler with an account for the last 3 and a half years

[kanjo 26,328]

we need HMRC to agree to the CVA deal though to get it ratified im sure,

yes, but if over 75% is agreed, dosn't that shift the goalposts(pardon the pun) to our favor?

[Jimfanciesthedude 24,545]

yes, but if over 75% is agreed, dosn't that shift the goalposts(pardon the pun) to our favor?

and thats where the confusion comes in mate, i thought that if HMRC dont agree to anything then its likely that we will be wound up,

[Gash07 26]

Can we afford to take the chance though? If we lose that case we're up shit creak. And if we win that case, they'll appeal, so we're not quite out of shit creak!

If this really is the thinking then all along Whyte has known that the verdict of the tax case is irrelevant. This is also at odds with everything Whyte has said since takeover.

God only knows what he's up to but it smells off to me.

[kanjo 26,328]

and thats where the confusion comes in mate, i thought that if HMRC dont agree to anything then its likely that we will be wound up,

I was always under the impression that if HMRC had their way with administration then that could/would have been the case, though the scale of US doing it today is massive and as STV quoted.."a small victory".

Trying to get better clarification on this but unfortunatly my boss is a Celtic fan and refuses to even suggest (even if legitimate) any way a favor could happen, and in such a case he'd not answer or "go for a break"

Any other legal folk out there with a better knowledge on CVA's?