Not enough black coaches

[A.T.G 10,773]

4 minutes ago, Creampuff said:

 

What, like no one would do that? Like it never happens?

Maybe back in the 50s aye, maybe I am naive but I have honestly never met anyone who would discriminate against blacks, women, disabled etc etc

I think in Britain, the past 50 years with immigration and education racism will be a thing of the past which is the only thing (education) that can rid the world of racism, not stupid laws where white people can miss out because of the colour of their skin (which could make matters worse)

I see you mention why is it such a big deal (or to that effect)...what if it doesn't stop here? What if it becomes mandatory that you need to have 40% players and management black or ethnic. What if that becomes law for all workplace? Can you not see how backward and non constructive this law is? 

[Creampuff 22,628]

1 minute ago, simplythebest said:

I think many people find positive discrimination annoying in general and the Rooney rule is just another example of it 

I've got no problem with black, gay, female people being in big positions but they should be there on merit and not through flawed rules 

Again though, the idea that the best candidate should get the job is at the heart of these programmes, flawed though they may be. 

They consider why it currently isn't happening, and attempt to make sure that there is an equality of opportunity. I can get why people would be annoyed with positive discrimination in examples where there are quotas etc on hiring people, but this is just letting people interview. It's no different to the schemes most employers run guaranteeing interviews to those with disabilities. 

[Creampuff 22,628]

1 minute ago, A.T.G said:

Maybe back in the 50s aye, maybe I am naive but I have honestly never met anyone who would discriminate against blacks, women, disabled etc etc

I think in Britain, the past 50 years with immigration and education racism will be a thing of the past which is the only thing (education) that can rid the world of racism, not stupid laws where white people can miss out because of the colour of their skin (which could make matters worse)

I see you mention why is it such a big deal (or to that effect)...what if it doesn't stop here? What if it becomes mandatory that you need to have 40% players and management black or ethnic. What if that becomes law for all workplace? Can you not see how backward and non constructive this law is? 

 

Well if it doesn't stop there and becomes a law that 40% of everyone's workforce is a certain ethnicity then obviously that's a completely different scenario. 

I've met plenty of people who would always choose the white candidate over a similar black candidate, even if they're not aware that they're doing it. Without meaning to sound crude, there's no other obvious reason why ethnic minorities are so underrepresented in senior positions in football and across management in other sectors.

[TheKingObv 10,647]

1 hour ago, Creampuff said:

Why would considering a black candidate mean that a white candidate wouldn't get the job? You consider a black manager, you consider a white manager, you hire the better candidate. 

I not necessarily saying I'm a fan of the Rooney rule - I think it's on a flawed premise of the reason for underrepresentation of ethnic minorities - but it's no where near as bad as some are making out.

I know what you're saying but you could argue superior white coaches won't be getting the chance to get an interview at all as a result. 

[Creampuff 22,628]

3 minutes ago, TheKingObv said:

I know what you're saying but you could argue superior white coaches won't be getting the chance to get an interview at all as a result. 

I can see where that argument comes from, but I don't see that happening in practice. It's not as if clubs can only interview 5 people for a vacancy, so they could in theory interview as many people as they like. 

In practice they'll interview everyone that has a genuine chance of getting the job.

[A.T.G 10,773]

Just now, Creampuff said:

 

Well if it doesn't stop there and becomes a law that 40% of everyone's workforce is a certain ethnicity then obviously that's a completely different scenario. 

I've met plenty of people who would always choose the white candidate over a similar black candidate, even if they're not aware that they're doing it. Without meaning to sound crude, there's no other obvious reason why ethnic minorities are so underrepresented in senior positions in football and across management in other sectors.

Maybe the whole picture hasn't been made clear to everyone, I mean, if the organisation could put figures together to say for example ...

In 2015/16 x amount of black managers applied for X amount positions, x amount were hired with a clear indication that the majority were more qualified or experienced than the white managers who got the roles then yes I would say action is needed. But not also that, that some serious investigations need to be made to apparent racist chairmen/boards at some football clubs. But none of these stats I have seen, they be out there I don't know.

Just seems to me that they are trying to shoehorn blacks into roles whatever their experience/relevance for that position.

[A.T.G 10,773]

1 minute ago, Creampuff said:

I can see where that argument comes from, but I don't see that happening in practice. It's not as if clubs can only interview 5 people for a vacancy, so they could in theory interview as many people as they like. 

In practice they'll interview everyone that has a genuine chance of getting the job.

+ x amount of black and ethnic minority managers (no matter what) 

 Sorry mate I couldn't resist adding that in

 

[Creampuff 22,628]

Just now, A.T.G said:

Maybe the whole picture hasn't been made clear to everyone, I mean, if the organisation could put figures together to say for example ...

In 2015/16 x amount of black managers applied for X amount positions, x amount were hired with a clear indication that the majority were more qualified or experienced than the white managers who got the roles then yes I would say action is needed. But not also that, that some serious investigations need to be made to apparent racist chairmen/boards at some football clubs. But none of these stats I have seen, they be out there I don't know.

Just seems to me that they are trying to shoehorn blacks into roles whatever their experience/relevance for that position.

Those stats would be great if they were available, but they would require people to admit that they break the law in their recruitment policies.

I don't think anyone would be shoehorning anyone with this sort of policy. It's simply ensuring that people of all ethnicities are considered. 

[simplythebest 11,453]

If nothing else I just can't see how the candidates themselves like that, who wants to be interviewed just to tick a box? Won't always be the case obviously black people will get interviewed on merit but there's other times where a team might only be considering one or two people but need to interview someone else to follow the rule 

[Creampuff 22,628]

8 minutes ago, simplythebest said:

If nothing else I just can't see how the candidates themselves like that, who wants to be interviewed just to tick a box? Won't always be the case obviously black people will get interviewed on merit but there's other times where a team might only be considering one or two people but need to interview someone else to follow the rule 

I guess you'd just need to tell yourself you're not just there to make up the numbers and do your best to impress.

If nothing else doing well in the interview would improve your reputation in the industry amongst those doing the recruitment.

[Creampuff 22,628]

15 minutes ago, A.T.G said:

+ x amount of black and ethnic minority managers (no matter what) 

 Sorry mate I couldn't resist adding that in

 

 

[gsa 3,906]

Quotas for black players/coaches have fucked South African rugby. 

Becoming a Springbok should be the pinnacle for any young black (or white) boy in South Africa. A colossal achievement. Now guys are going to sit there knowing they are only in the squad to fill a quota. Demeaning and unfair on everyone. 

[Laudrup1984 25,100]

Troy Townsend says the "make-up" of Football League boardrooms is preventing black coaches from getting managerial jobs.

Recent research from the Sports People's Think Tank showed efforts to get more football coaches from a Black Asian and Minority Ethnic (BAME) background are not progressing as hoped.

A study compiled by Loughborough University and the Fare Network showed only four per cent of coaches at England's 92 Premier League and EFL clubs are from a minority.

Townsend, Education & Development manager for Kick It Out, believes too many League clubs are employing managers that are a reflection of their own boardrooms - to the detriment of aspiring black coaches.

"I automatically put the pressure on those who are doing the hiring and the firing," he told Sky Sports News HQ. "If your boardroom looks a particular way, you want a particular type of manager, let's not mince any words.

"When someone sacks a manager, nine times out of 10 they already know who they want to put in to replace them and they've already spoken to that person too.

"The reason they let the manager go is because they've nigh on done that deal. That disheartens a lot of people when they're going for jobs, and that's a lot of people across the board.

"That recruitment process is not fair and until we can introduce a fair recruitment process that won't change. Are black coaches trusted? The honest answer has to be no because if they were there wouldn't be this disparity in the figures.

"There are people who feel they don't get to an interview and are not being recognised for their ability to coach. It's going to be difficult to change that mind set, especially at the top end of the game."

Townsend also criticised Wolves for not following the voluntary code under which clubs are encouraged to interview BAME candidates, instead replacing Walter Zenga with Paul Lambert with seemingly no interview process undertaken.

Wolves are one of 10 EFL clubs that have signed up to a voluntary recruitment code being trialled this year which says they will interview at least one BAME candidate for every first-team coaching or managerial position.

But the club rejected criticism of the Lambert appointment, and said in a statement: "Contrary to claims made in the report, Wolves notified the EFL following the recent appointment of Paul Lambert as manager to confirm that the club had complied fully with the code by interviewing at least one BAME candidate during the recruitment process.

"Wolves have provided details of the two processes to the EFL as requested, and remain committed to the club's role as one of the 10 clubs which voluntarily put themselves forward to take part in the BAME recruitment process." 

[Moody Blue Legend 61,596]

QPR.  Black helped sack black.  Not helping themselves!! 

[Laudrup1984 25,100]

In the extract I have highlighted in bold above Townsend acknowledges approximately 90% of new gaffers are already lined up in advance. I think most of us believe this to be the case in that before you sack someone you generally headhunt someone (or have a shortlist) you want and that probably applies with a lot of top jobs in a wide variety of jobs throughout the world, not just in football. You want what you believe to be the best and possibly look for a person you know/trust. I don't believe every club adheres to a standard recruitment process although a club should be able to headhunt whoever they want IMO, but as always you would always expect any employer to appoint the very best candidate. However if clubs already have ready made, experienced, proven managers lined up, straight away, that limits the pool for any potential manager regardless of their skin colour of ethnicity. 

Whilst I don't doubt racism exists, in the UK, I would genuinely be surprised if a club who did receive applications would simply bin them or not interview them based on their skin colour. Maybe i'm naive but I find that absurd especially when the diversity of footballers in the UK and society is very much embraced and accepted.

Without clear facts it's difficult to see if any discrimination is substantiated but as above I would be extremely surprised. Although it's pure guesswork I would presume that not many from a BAME background actually apply for many roles. And those who do include the likes of Paul Ince! Already Wolves are being dug up for having the audacity of recruiting the highly decorated Walter Zenga! Many guys like Rio Ferdinand, Thierry Henry, Sol Campbell, big names can be vocal about this kind of situation however have they ever applied for any roles themselves? You always hear of many complaining about the lack of black managers but it would really be interesting to see how many applied, how many were rejected and on what grounds. My feelings are those that do apply are simply not deemed good enough on merit, nothing more nothing less.

IMO, where there is a vacant role in any walk of life there should be no quota based on sex, race, religion, disability, age or anything else. It should always be about who is the best candidate. No certain group should be been given any form of special dispensation, whether it be for the interview process or the job itself, and if the best candidate is from BAME background I have no doubt they will be given the job..........

[Orryy 180]

There's hunners of them 

[A.T.G 10,773]

8 minutes ago, Laudrup1984 said:

In the extract I have highlighted in bold above Townsend acknowledges approximately 90% of new gaffers are already lined up in advance. I think most of us believe this to be the case in that before you sack someone you generally headhunt someone (or a have shortlist) you want and that probably applies with a lot of top jobs in a wide variety of jobs throughout the world, not just in football. You want what you believe to be the best and possibly look for a person you know/trust. I don't believe every club adheres to a standard recruitment process although a club should be able to headhunt whoever they want IMO, but as always you would always expect any employer to appoint the very best candidate. However if clubs already have ready made, experienced, proven managers lined up, straight away, that limits the pool for any potential manager regardless of their skin colour of ethnicity. 

Whilst I don't doubt racism exists, in the UK, I would genuinely be surprised if a club who did receive applications would simply bin them or not interview them based on their skin colour. Maybe i'm naive but I find that absurd especially when the diversity of footballers in the UK and society is very much embraced and accepted.

Without clear facts it's difficult to see if any discrimination is substantiated but as above I would be extremely surprised. Although it's pure guesswork I would presume that not many from a BAME background actually apply for many roles. And those who do include the likes of Paul Ince! Already Wolves are being dug up for having the audacity of recruiting the highly decorated Walter Zenga! Many guys like Rio Ferdinand, Thierry Henry, Sol Campbell, big names can be vocal about this kind of situation however have they ever applied for any roles themselves? You always hear of many complaining about the lack of black managers but it would really be interesting to see how many applied, how many were rejected and on what grounds. My feelings are those that do apply are simply not deemed good enough on merit, nothing more nothing less.

IMO, where there is a vacant role in any walk of life there should be no quota based on sex, race, religion, disability, age or anything else. It should always be about who is the best candidate. No certain group should be been given any form of special dispensation, whether it be for the interview process or the job itself, and if the best candidate is of from BAME background I have no doubt they will be given the job..........

Exactly mate, well said, and if I ever found myself in a position of unemployment because some regulation meant the black persons had to get it over me despite my qualifications or experience being far superior...

Id probably become racist

[Laudrup1984 25,100]

5 minutes ago, A.T.G said:

Exactly mate, well said, and if I ever found myself in a position of unemployment because some regulation meant the black persons had to get it over me despite my qualifications or experience being far superior...

Id probably become racist

I'm not sure how accurate this is but I believe one of the codes that is to be adhered to is as follows:

"Clubs must include at least one suitably qualified BME candidate (where an application has been received) on the interview shortlist for that position."

If that is the case then any club can surely just say that they have not received any applications that they deem to be suitable for the interview process if that is their belief, and if they can (and they should be able to IMO) then the process is flawed.

[Prso's headband 35,573]

The current black population in England is less than 3%. The percentage of black managers is 2.88%. Why is it beyond people to do simple research ffs

[GM63 2,212]

Under this system what happens if the board sack the manager? Do they have to replace like with like, or will it be very difficult to dismiss the manager.

[Blueshoff 11,877]

13 minutes ago, GM63 said:

Under this system what happens if the board sack the manager? Do they have to replace like with like, or will it be very difficult to dismiss the manager.

Well they do say once you have black. .........

??????

[Gaz52 11,837]

We gave them a President and still they want more 

[BridgeIsBlue 66,613]

This positive discrimination is a joke.

Candidate A has all the qualifications and is white.

Candidate B doesn't have as many qualifications as Candidate A but he is black.

Candidate B gets the job.

[geneva_ger 9,367]

13 hours ago, there'sonlyoneamoruso said:

If anything help should be given to the black and minority managers to give them a better chance at getting the jobs ie presentation skills and interview techniques etc. I think the problem lies in that area rather than the colour of their skin

Ouch, that's a bit near the knuckle assumption. Have you listened to some of the white managers and seen how they present themselves?

[geneva_ger 9,367]

But is is refreshing to see that the beggars did some positive discrimination in appointing a tranny