We need to have a serious conversation about Tav

[esquire8 43,730]

1 minute ago, The Dude said:

No. 

 

43 minutes ago, The Dude said:

They can't have figured it out thatt well. 39 goals and 55 assists in the league alone from Borna and Tav since the start of the season we won 55.

 

32 minutes ago, Jimbeamjunior said:

That include penalties and set pieces

How many from open play? 

 

23 minutes ago, The Dude said:

21 penalties, 8 freekicks. 

So that's still 39 goals and 55 assists from the players 'teams figured out' before we won 55.

Not discussing open play?

[Roy Hobbs 2,358]

Just now, esquire8 said:

How effective though? What's his success rate considering he takes them all? Higher % than a James Ward-Prowse or De Bruyne? 

De Bruyne had 10 assists last season. Ward prowse 11.

[The Dude 20,026]

Just now, esquire8 said:

 

 

 

Not discussing open play?

No, their total contribution.

[esquire8 43,730]

1 minute ago, The Dude said:

Effective enough that between him and Barisic they’ve scored 39 times and contributed 55 assists since teams ‘figured them out’. 

Again if you want to keep including set pieces where teams can't really 'figure them out' then it's still low numbers over 3 seasons between the two of them.

Not bashing Barisic here btw, who I think has turned up this season.

[The Dude 20,026]

Just now, esquire8 said:

Again if you want to keep including set pieces where teams can't really 'figure them out' then it's still low numbers over 3 seasons between the two of them.

Not bashing Barisic here btw, who I think has turned up this season.

39 goals and 55 assists in three seasons in the league from our fullbacks are ‘low numbers’? 😂
Can you name two fullbacks anywhere in the world with better numbers over the same period? 

[CXB 4,488]

6 minutes ago, mitre_mouldmaster said:

Why? If he is only consistently at the top of the table for assists because of set plays, then he must be the best in the league at them?

Perhaps someone could do it better, we'll never know if Tav continues to take most set pieces...a wee change could be the way to go.

I'm not criticising his record, merely saying it's good to mix it.

[Jimfanciesthedude 25,047]

8 hours ago, The Dude said:

Do goals count less if scored from a free kick or penalty? 

Same with assists, Do they count less if from a dead-ball?

I’d be surprised if you can find two fullbacks anywhere with similar numbers over the same period

 

We are talking about our system from open play

So out of 39 goals and 55 assists, how many were utilising our attacking fullback playstyle and how many were from set pieces that are not directly affected by your play style

[Jimfanciesthedude 25,047]

8 hours ago, The Dude said:

39 goals and 55 assists in three seasons in the league from our fullbacks are ‘low numbers’? 😂
Can you name two fullbacks anywhere in the world with better numbers over the same period? 

Can you name a team whos fullbacks take every set piece? 

[Roy Hobbs 2,358]

1 minute ago, Jimbeamjunior said:

Can you name a team whos fullbacks take every set piece? 

Liverpool 

[Jimfanciesthedude 25,047]

8 hours ago, The Dude said:

No, their total contribution.

What has their total contribution got to do with our teams play style? No one is saying they goals dont count, but were talking about how effectively our style is in a normal situation

[Jimfanciesthedude 25,047]

2 minutes ago, Roy Hobbs said:

Liverpool 

And how did they get on again last season? Or the season before that? 

[graeme_4 35,419]

1 minute ago, Jimbeamjunior said:

What has their total contribution got to do with our teams play style? No one is saying they goals dont count, but were talking about how effectively our style is in a normal situation

Tav’s ‘engine’ for getting up and down the park is declining, and that’s the point folk are trying to make. Set pieces are irrelevant to that really. 

[Roy Hobbs 2,358]

2 minutes ago, Jimbeamjunior said:

And how did they get on again last season? Or the season before that? 

The season before last they lost the league by a point with a points tally that would win it most seasons, the champions league by a goal and won the two cups. Are you saying that's because their full backs take set pieces?

[Jimfanciesthedude 25,047]

4 minutes ago, Roy Hobbs said:

The season before last they lost the league by a point with a points tally that would win it most seasons, the champions league by a goal and won the two cups. Are you saying that's because their full backs take set pieces?

So 3 seasons ago the system was effective, just like ours was, how have liverpool got on the last two seasons? If memory serves me right they didnt even make top 4 last season 

Almost as if teams figured out their system 

[mitre_mouldmaster 21,510]

20 minutes ago, Jimbeamjunior said:

So 3 seasons ago the system was effective, just like ours was, how have liverpool got on the last two seasons? If memory serves me right they didnt even make top 4 last season 

Almost as if teams figured out their system 

Mate this is getting a bit wild.

Liverpool didn't have a massive swing on points because teams worked out that their full backs take their set plays.

Like, come on...

[beararse 6,480]

20 hours ago, graeme_4 said:

People were rightfully absolutely fizzing at the state of us in preseason and then the Killie result, but the rage has definitely subsided I think. I’m still entirely unconvinced by Beale, but that’s part of being a Rangers manager - you need success to keep everyone on side. He wins then the vast majority are delighted. Likewise you struggle or there’s red flags, then it’s the nature of the beast. 

I didn’t realise Sterling had played a more attacking role before, so when you only really have Morton (where he was poor) and the defensive soundbites it’s probably a snap judgement. Hopefully he comes good. 

The square peg round hole issue is probably more a legacy from the Gerrard era of signing wingers and making them ‘10s’ or playing our actual 10s too wide to be effective. That’s then been built on with Lammers as a 10, Raskin & Cifuentes wide in a diamond, Sima as a striker etc. 

I seem to recall Bassey being bang average/piss poor in his first full 90 mins (Falkirk?) and failing miserably v St Mirren. He then went onto become the best player we had.

If they were ready made players we wouldn’t be able to afford them.

Sterling needs game time in order to grow into the type of player our set up requires. And even then he’s unlikely to be as effective as prime Tav going forward, but hopefully his defensive abilities cancel out what we might lose.

 

[Jimfanciesthedude 25,047]

8 minutes ago, mitre_mouldmaster said:

Mate this is getting a bit wild.

Liverpool didn't have a massive swing on points because teams worked out that their full backs take their set plays.

Like, come on...

No you miss the point, im highly guessing that, just like tav and Borna, Liverpool fullbacks will look to have contributed a lot so it looks like their system works, when if you take out the set pieces, then the system is shown to be way less effective 

As i said to @The Dudeour fullback numbers arent in question, but from open play they aren't as effective anymore and havent been for a couple of years now

[Jimfanciesthedude 25,047]

To put it into perspective 

Our main attacking threat has produced 94 goal contributions in 3 seasons between two players

The tarriers just sold a guy who contributed 54 times in 2 seasons 

And if we want to add in the other winger they signed two year ago, thats another 50 goal contributions in 2 years

[Roy Hobbs 2,358]

43 minutes ago, Jimbeamjunior said:

So 3 seasons ago the system was effective, just like ours was, how have liverpool got on the last two seasons? If memory serves me right they didnt even make top 4 last season 

Almost as if teams figured out their system 

I've literally just told you how they got on the season before last.

The second part is laughable.

[OrangeRab 3,071]

35 minutes ago, beararse said:

I seem to recall Bassey being bang average/piss poor in his first full 90 mins (Falkirk?) and failing miserably v St Mirren. He then went onto become the best player we had.

If they were ready made players we wouldn’t be able to afford them.

Sterling needs game time in order to grow into the type of player our set up requires. And even then he’s unlikely to be as effective as prime Tav going forward, but hopefully his defensive abilities cancel out what we might lose.

 

Think that’s a fair point generally. Someone like Diallo was only 19 and could have kicked on if we’d had him on another loan.

Bassey was only 20 when he joined us and hadn’t played any senior football.

Even Matondo was only 21 when he joined.

I’m less confident with Sterling becoming some offensive powerhouse though. He is about to turn 24 and has played over 100 senior games with very poor attacking stats. Players can improve rapidly between 19-23. But it tends to happen less quickly after that.

 

[ger4life_1872 29,878]

Does our play style contribute to the amount of set piece situations we end up with 

[ger4life_1872 29,878]

1 hour ago, Jimbeamjunior said:

Can you name a team whos fullbacks take every set piece? 

Trippier hits the majority at newcastle 

Chillwell and james take most at chelsea 

 

[SeparateEntityMyArse 54,378]

On 24/08/2023 at 09:08, Smile said:

Do you not see a bit of a pattern with Beale he brings in a player who plays one position then tries to convert him to another, He's doing it with Lammers now.

I know players are adaptable and can play different positions but if you want teams to gel you play players within that team in their strongest position.

Our best player is Cantwell and he plays different positions. What's more, he thinks it's important players do so.

[The Dude 20,026]

1 hour ago, Jimbeamjunior said:

To put it into perspective 

Our main attacking threat has produced 94 goal contributions in 3 seasons between two players

The tarriers just sold a guy who contributed 54 times in 2 seasons 

And if we want to add in the other winger they signed two year ago, thats another 50 goal contributions in 2 years

So what you're saying is, our attacking players are shite and don't offer anywhere near enough?

[SeparateEntityMyArse 54,378]

1 hour ago, Jimbeamjunior said:

To put it into perspective 

Our main attacking threat has produced 94 goal contributions in 3 seasons between two players

The tarriers just sold a guy who contributed 54 times in 2 seasons 

And if we want to add in the other winger they signed two year ago, thats another 50 goal contributions in 2 years

Sounds like we'd need to heavily prioritise investment in our forward line then.

I'm a build from the back fan myself but your stats actually demonstrate why up front has been prioritised.