The Offside Goal vs St.J

[gmcf 34,395]

There was nothing in it , they both looked level . Not sure what the rules are regarding that situation . 

[superallysbears 7,715]

Just now, Roy Hobbs said:

AI system. Way too expensive I would think.

Aye probably, when they had it for that pass to Dessers at Ibrox against PSV, looked off initially but it showed it perfectly.

[rossco87 692]

1 minute ago, Roy Hobbs said:

I don't think Lawrence had a hold of him at any time. He had his palms open. I thought the Butland one looked worse 

I was the other way that I thought Butland got the ball fractionally before their player and not saying the Lawrence one was a nailed on penalty, just that if VAR were really out to fuck us over they had two opportunities that they could have taken that potentially have a way bigger impact on the game than drawing squinty lines to deny us a second.

 

4 minutes ago, Roy Hobbs said:

Sky showed the penalty claims multiple times but had the offside lines on for a second.

Would love to say I find it strange but not really surprised. Same kinda thing happened with the OF highlights package they put together online. They didn’t show our offside goal (nothing controversial in it but a pretty big incident right at the start of the game) cut it to make it look like celtic dominated the 2nd half when in reality they sat in and hit us on the counter and didn’t analyse the Maeda barge on Cantwell at all.

[RealWorldRich 701]

16 minutes ago, rossco87 said:

Hard one to tell. From looking at the still it definitely looks onside but the angle isn’t exactly great and it is also assuming the cut on the grass is exactly perpendicular.

I don’t think the VAR use the same camera feed as Sky to draw the lines and I am pretty sure I read something where it is basically they use the goal line as the reference to get the line set and then effectively drag it up the pitch using the touchlines to make sure it stays perpendicular.  Saying that would hardly be a surprise if the pitch isn’t set out exactly square and fucks the whole system!!!

 

Cant see it as a massive conspiracy as to be honest the penalty shout against Lawrence could easily have been flagged up for review if we are wanting to go down the VAR wanted screw us over mindset.  It would have been incredibly soft but have definitely seen pens given for that level of contact.

 

Found it strange how little Sky wanted to look at it but that is a different discussion from whether the decision was correct or not.

There's absolutely noway a cow field like that has perfectly perpendicular and parallel sidelines & bylines.  It makes a shambles of a system which attempts to be accurate to the millimetre.  

 

See if VAR wasn't used and the goal was chopped by virtue of the linesman flagging (which he did) then fine, but this so-called VAR tech is deeply flawed.  

[onlythestrongsurvive 1,007]

11 minutes ago, gmcf said:

There was nothing in it , they both looked level . Not sure what the rules are regarding that situation . 

If you're level, you're on

[Big Al 55 9,282]

Yes didn’t look offside, but need to trust the technology tbf

[Ibroxholm 2,280]

6 minutes ago, graeme_4 said:

Off is off. The cameras are calibrated with the park. It’s not a guy drawing lines on Microsoft paint. 

On what datum line are the cameras calibrated?  I wouldn’t have thought that the side lines, centre lines and byelines are set out by the groundsman to a very high level of accuracy, although I may be wrong.  If I was setting it out on an instrument, I would probably take the centre point of each goal, draw a datum line between them and take the offside line at right angles to that datum.  It could be that the side lines may not be fully parallel with, or the same length as the central datum line.

The cameras themselves, plus the reading of them, must have some plus and negative tolerance so there must always be some grey area even if small. One wonders who gets the benefit of the doubt in these cases or if they just totally ignore the instrument/reading tolerance.

You also have to think why the offside law was introduced in the first place, presumably to prevent the attacking team seeking an unfair advantage.  If that advantage cannot even be deciphered by the human eye, how can it be considered to be unfairly sought.  You would think that some reasonable margin of error (say 300mm) would be given to the attacking team to account for this.

 

[rossco87 692]

4 minutes ago, RealWorldRich said:

There's absolutely noway a cow field like that has perfectly perpendicular and parallel sidelines & bylines.  It makes a shambles of a system which attempts to be accurate to the millimetre.  

 

See if VAR wasn't used and the goal was chopped by virtue of the linesman flagging (which he did) then fine, but this so-called VAR tech is deeply flawed.  

I’m just a bit concerned there are some of us are becoming too much like “them” and seeing a conspiracy in everything…

 

Essentially there are two questions that come out of this:
 

Could the technology be absolutely shit and not fit for purpose? Possibly - I’m going to admit I don’t know enough about how it is done to be able to comment on it really (although if I know Scottish football we will have found the cheapest way to implement it with a system that is one level up from wee Dave from the graphics department sitting on Windows 8 using MS Paint and holding Ctrl to make sure the line is straight…)

 

Is VAR somehow out to fuck us over in favour of them? The fact they had the opportunity to flag a potential penalty (and put the ref under pressure to go and view it) and chose not to tends to suggest to me there is no grand conspiracy.

 

Either means that the decision was correct and the view we have isn’t great for viewing it, or the technology is shit but everyone is equally exposed to having a bad decision against them (actually probably has less of an impact on us as we more often faced packed defences and don’t have strikers who play on the shoulder of the last man looking to get in behind)

[rossco87 692]

3 minutes ago, Ibroxholm said:

On what datum line are the cameras calibrated?  I wouldn’t have thought that the side lines, centre lines and byelines are set out by the groundsman to a very high level of accuracy, although I may be wrong.  If I was setting it out on an instrument, I would probably take the centre point of each goal, draw a datum line between them and take the offside line at right angles to that datum.  It could be that the side lines may not be fully parallel with, or the same length as the central datum line.

The cameras themselves, plus the reading of them, must have some plus and negative tolerance so there must always be some grey area even if small. One wonders who gets the benefit of the doubt in these cases or if they just totally ignore the instrument/reading tolerance.

You also have to think why the offside law was introduced in the first place, presumably to prevent the attacking team seeking an unfair advantage.  If that advantage cannot even be deciphered by the human eye, how can it be considered to be unfairly sought.  You would think that some reasonable margin of error (say 300mm) would be given to the attacking team to account for this.

 

That’s me understanding of how it is done in England - no idea if we use the same system up here.

 

Think England use the entire goal line not just the goal, but essentially same thing. Set that as your reference line and have the meterage of both sidelines calibrated on the camera view so the line can be moved up the pitch keeping it parallel to the original reference plane.  Relies quite heavily on the pitch being set out pretty accurately to avoid the lines getting messed up.

 

Have wondered if there is a better system where we can simply set a drone located above the centre circle (would have to be high enough to not interfere with high kicks but we have indoor stadiums so must be calculable) get it positioned so that it is perfectly aligned between the centre of the two goals and the halfway line and you have an overhead view that you should then be able to pretty quickly drop perpendicular lines onto to set out where a player is.

 

Only other way I could see would be for players to have RFID chips in the boots / strips. Would mean a change in the way we view it as would probably just be one in each boot and then say one in the chest of the strip but could mean some of the more contentious ones where there is literally a toe or a forehead offside would disappear.
 

[SeparateEntityMyArse 53,926]

13 minutes ago, rossco87 said:

I’m just a bit concerned there are some of us are becoming too much like “them” and seeing a conspiracy in everything…

They managed to get shot of referees, the head of the sfa, forced a refs strike causing us to bring in foreign refs.

They've caused refs to be fearful for themselves, their families, and for their property.

The Clancy game will never, ever for me be put down to incompetence given he got so many decisions right (in their favour) and so many wrong ( in their favour).

If you think ref / VAR would have ruled out the Dessers goal or Morelos opener at Parkhead if Celtic were scoring then more fool you. 

I don't think refs sit and discuss deliberate bias, but I fully accept pressures including some of the above make it easier to penalise us than them. 

The scum accept and tolerate nothing, never give an inch. We don't want to be that type so take whatever and move on. The Board got criticised for questioning the Dessers incident ffs. So it's unsurprising if refs take the easy safe option.

[Leighton loyal 336]

[Jamie0202 12,402]

1 hour ago, SeparateEntityMyArse said:

Why the fuck did the linesman put his flag up when it was a bawhair in it and we progressed into attack and scored?

 

Yip. Actually think Walsh deserves praise for ignoring the dozy bastard linesman and letting the play continue. 

[Roy Hobbs 2,212]

2 minutes ago, Leighton loyal said:

How can you even say which line is ahead of the other there?

[gmcf 34,395]

26 minutes ago, onlythestrongsurvive said:

If you're level, you're on

Should have stood then 👍 . 

[SeparateEntityMyArse 53,926]

3 minutes ago, Jamie0202 said:

Yip. Actually think Walsh deserves praise for ignoring the dozy bastard linesman and letting the play continue. 

To me that's a bigger issue than the offside call itself.

[Leighton loyal 336]

Just now, Roy Hobbs said:

How can you even say which line is ahead of the other there?

You can’t , both inline imo so goal should have stood 

[docspiderman 1,245]

Offside is the only non subjective element in VAR decisions so should not be controversial. However, decisions are sometimes so tight that it would be easier if the rule was changed to if any part of the body is onside the goal should stand rather than have a nose or a slice of kneecap making a player offside.The handball rule has been changed so often so why not simplify offside?

[KeyserSoze 14,634]

We all couldn’t wait for VAR because our officials are all shite. 
we need to roll with it or we will end up in a never ending moan.  

[RealWorldRich 701]

32 minutes ago, rossco87 said:

I’m just a bit concerned there are some of us are becoming too much like “them” and seeing a conspiracy in everything…

 

Essentially there are two questions that come out of this:
 

Could the technology be absolutely shit and not fit for purpose? Possibly - I’m going to admit I don’t know enough about how it is done to be able to comment on it really (although if I know Scottish football we will have found the cheapest way to implement it with a system that is one level up from wee Dave from the graphics department sitting on Windows 8 using MS Paint and holding Ctrl to make sure the line is straight…)

 

Is VAR somehow out to fuck us over in favour of them? The fact they had the opportunity to flag a potential penalty (and put the ref under pressure to go and view it) and chose not to tends to suggest to me there is no grand conspiracy.

 

Either means that the decision was correct and the view we have isn’t great for viewing it, or the technology is shit but everyone is equally exposed to having a bad decision against them (actually probably has less of an impact on us as we more often faced packed defences and don’t have strikers who play on the shoulder of the last man looking to get in behind)

I don't think it's a "conspiracy" but i think ref's are scared of celtic, without a doubt.

 

Also a few weeks ago, Mike Dean was on a podcast discussing his decision not to send Anthony Taylor to the TV in a Spurs v Chelsea game last season, where the Spurs boy pulled the Chelsea wingbacks hair.  It was a clear red card but he said Taylor was. amate and didn't want to give him a hard decision to make.

 

And that's the PL, not the diddy SPFL. I think it's entirely possible the VAR guys today just guessed at some lines and went with offside to keep the game competitive at 1-0.

[Nk89 1,289]

1 hour ago, ForeverAndEver said:

There was definitely talk of that becoming the rule for this season, whether or not it came about I’m not sure

Yip, they have made the lines a bit bigger and if they touch it is onside

[Nk89 1,289]

23 minutes ago, Roy Hobbs said:

How can you even say which line is ahead of the other there?

More to the point, how can you tell from there when the ball is being played

[Inigo 32,553]

51 minutes ago, Roy Hobbs said:

How can you even say which line is ahead of the other there?

Presumably the technology tells you.

[onlythestrongsurvive 1,007]

48 minutes ago, Roy Hobbs said:

How can you even say which line is ahead of the other there?

you can't - they're level so goal should have stood.  It is also not clear and obvious which is supposed to be the whole point of VAR. 

Also, I swear they really wanted to give them 2 penalties today and that kain should have been booked for simulation then sent off as he picked up a booking after the Butland dive.

[ayro 3,046]

55 minutes ago, Jamie0202 said:

Yip. Actually think Walsh deserves praise for ignoring the dozy bastard linesman and letting the play continue. 

Walsh did the right thing today in telling him to put his flag down, let the game flow and if a goal is scored then VAR will help out.

At the game I thought he was onside but willing to trust the technology.

[onlythestrongsurvive 1,007]

38 minutes ago, KeyserSoze said:

We all couldn’t wait for VAR because our officials are all shite. 
we need to roll with it or we will end up in a never ending moan.  

It's fuckin us over mate - they're making it up as they go along and picking and chosing which ones they are looking at and being 'subjective' in their decisions.