Swally 6,289 Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 Just now, ZZed said: sorry to be a bawbag but I can see at least 3 logical fallacies in there. pray tell Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZZed 4,510 Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 1 assumptive reasoning. 2 circular logic 3 projection of abilities/ outcomes on to others 4 over valuation of experence Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swally 6,289 Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 11 minutes ago, The Dude said: And if you've got relevant experience that trumps it, I'm all ears but when it comes to the way clubs are managing the processes during Covid, there's little better information than direct or first-hand experience of how clubs are managing it. Having been one of the few folk who has been lucky enough to get to watch games in person so far this season, I've got to see precisely how clubs are going about things. If you go back through the thread, you'll see that it has very much been looked at from different points of view by myself - to the point where I've asked celtic for an explanation of when the player was tested etc but all the evidence so far points to their version of events being the accurate one. If there's anything out there that contradicts that, I'd love to see it because there's a pretty big story there. Not sure where I've not seen 'reality' in this though tbh. The reality is that theres no evidence which suggests celtic were in anyway aware of the players trip or have acted in breach of the regulations. As much as everyone wants to think everyone in Scottish football is in thrall to them, had celtic as a club breached the regs, you can be sure there would be some club chiefs kicking up fuck behind closed doors and through off the record chats with journos. I've also done many years of working with kids from all sorts of backgrounds (from some hyper rich little shits to inner-city kids who had literally never seen a squirrel before and some who were affected by Chernobyl). There are many strings to my bow. The fact is, a business (no matter what kind of business) is accountable for what its employees do unless they can expressly prove they did all in their power to prevent something from happening. The fact we're talking about a football club means fuck all here, so your self-confessed superior knowledge is immaterial Even a business can be brought into a case if a fight broke out between two employees - even if they are outside their place of work. It's really is that simple. If celtic can prove they did do all in their power to tell the player, then they should not be punished. If they can't, that's their fault, and they should be punished for the player's actions. Now I'm off to enjoy the game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swally 6,289 Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 3 minutes ago, ZZed said: 1 assumptive reasoning. 2 circular logic 3 projection of abilities/ outcomes on to others 4 over valuation of experence All in your opinion, and frankly I can't be arsed arguing technicalities with another on here who doesn't seem to understand the stupidity in arguing over the bones of the argument when the flesh is sitting there ready to be consumed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogzy 31,195 Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 16 minutes ago, Swally said: I disagree with forfeiting games because it hits the other club's finances, they should simply play the games at a later date The docking of points I agree with I'm the opposite of that. I agree with forfeiting future games, but am on the fence with docking points. If they make a rule that covers it, then everyone will know where they stand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueshoff 11,814 Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 The whole thing is going to descend into an absolute shit fest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swally 6,289 Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 4 minutes ago, gogzy said: I'm the opposite of that. I agree with forfeiting future games, but am on the fence with docking points. If they make a rule that covers it, then everyone will know where they stand. Gogzy there's a match on I do not think it's fair for the opposition to lose out financial because another team has been negligent. That's the only reason I'm saying that, otherwise I'd agree with you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogzy 31,195 Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 47 minutes ago, Swally said: Gogzy there's a match on I do not think it's fair for the opposition to lose out financial because another team has been negligent. That's the only reason I'm saying that, otherwise I'd agree with you. The match wasn't on when I posted. :p There's the fixture pile up forced upon clubs that have had games postponed without doing anything wrong. Which is why I don't think the games should be postponed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swally 6,289 Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 1 minute ago, gogzy said: The match wasn't on when I posted. :p There's the fixture pile up forced upon clubs that have had games postponed without doing anything wrong. Which is why I don't think the games should be postponed. It's difficult isn't it? I guess another thing you could do is fine the one side and give that to the other side as compensation. As everyone knows it's a difficult situation Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EverestGers 748 Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 1 hour ago, The Dude said: I know how to take on information from other posters but when I have more relevant info, that takes precedence. With the greatest respect to posters on here, info coming direct from clubs about how they are managing things, and my own first-hand experience of how clubs are managing things, during all of this carries far more weight than someone's experience with an accountancy firm etc. I learned to read upside down before I could read the right way up (legit) and can scan read a page and take in the relevant info without having to sit and pore over each word so I'm absolutely on the autistic spectrum, no idea why that would be a bad thing though. I'm sure I could pick quirks from most people that would place them on the spectrum in one way or another. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude 20,026 Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 27 minutes ago, EverestGers said: Well done. Did you manage that all by yourself? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudrupsleftfoot 10,872 Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 Can't agree with retrospectively deciding to dock points or forfeit games. If one of our players had been thick enough to do what Bolingoli did, which let's face it is more than possible, then we'd all rightly be raging at the idea. I'm under no illusions though that if it had been one of our players we'd be getting absolutely hammered. I would also bet money that shadowy figures are working hard to see if any of our players have slipped up before Bolingoli. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swally 6,289 Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 3 minutes ago, Laudrupsleftfoot said: Can't agree with retrospectively deciding to dock points or forfeit games. If one of our players had been thick enough to do what Bolingoli did, which let's face it is more than possible, then we'd all rightly be raging at the idea. I'm under no illusions though that if it had been one of our players we'd be getting absolutely hammered. I would also bet money that shadowy figures are working hard to see if any of our players have slipped up before Bolingoli. If the governing body had anything about them they would have decided on punishments and made it known before the season even started. It's not like they didn't have enough time on their hands to do such a simple thing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudrupsleftfoot 10,872 Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 13 minutes ago, Swally said: If the governing body had anything about them they would have decided on punishments and made it known before the season even started. It's not like they didn't have enough time on their hands to do such a simple thing. Yeah I agree with that, but I don't think it's fair to decide on a punishment like docking points after the fact. Not sure I would want to win the league that way either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornliebanktrueblue 667 Posted August 12, 2020 Author Share Posted August 12, 2020 3 hours ago, The Dude said: I know how to take on information from other posters but when I have more relevant info, that takes precedence. With the greatest respect to posters on here, info coming direct from clubs about how they are managing things, and my own first-hand experience of how clubs are managing things, during all of this carries far more weight than someone's experience with an accountancy firm etc. I learned to read upside down before I could read the right way up (legit) and can scan read a page and take in the relevant info without having to sit and pore over each word so I'm absolutely on the autistic spectrum, no idea why that would be a bad thing though. I'm sure I could pick quirks from most people that would place them on the spectrum in one way or another. Stockholm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude 20,026 Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 17 minutes ago, Thornliebanktrueblue said: Stockholm Ah of course. Because an accountancy firm is a far more accurate method of knowing how football clubs are operating. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweetheart 8,458 Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 LMAO the 'poor souls' at the SPFL only had to sort the fixtures for 12 teams, the rest of Scottish football doesn't restart until October. IF the season had to be ended, it could have been voided, Ajax in Holland accepted the voiding. But PL stated voiding the competition was not an option. If fixture congestion is a problem, then it's a problem of there on making as they could have voided the Scottish Cup games. It's also unclear what efforts the SPFL made to influence the government into restarting the football for 12 teams. Quote Covid-19 chaos shows the SPFL were right to curtail the 2019/20 Premiership season By Matthew Lindsay The Herald --------------- THE way in which the SPFL arrived at the decision to end the 2019/20 Premiership season prematurely and decide final positions on a points per game basis back in April left a huge amount to be desired. The events in the build up to a special resolution being passed that ultimately saw celtic crowned Scottish champions for a record-equalling ninth consecutive occasions and Hearts relegated led to, rightly or wrongly, widespread accusations of bias and impropriety. The alternative Rangers’ proposal getting thrown out. Dundee’s email going mysteriously missing. Allegations of bullying and coercion. The votes cast being made public before the final outcome was known. It was all highly unfortunate. That uncertain period was, it shouldn’t be forgotten, difficult for everyone involved. Football had been shut down due to the Covid-19 outbreak in March, staff had been furloughed and clubs across the country were, with income streams suddenly cut off, concerned about their very survival. Still, those responsible could and really should have done far, far better. An internal Deloitte investigation – not an independent inquiry that Rangers had demanded - and the SFA arbitration process that was launched after Hearts and Partick Thistle challenged their demotions have done very little to restore faith in the SPFL board and executive among supporters. Yet, nothing that happened during that tumultuous time necessarily means the final outcome that was arrived at wasn’t the correct one. Declaring the campaign null and void and scrapping promotion and relegation would have incensed celtic, Dundee United, Raith Rovers and Cove Rangers not to mention broadcasters, advertisers and sponsors and led to hefty compensation claims as well as expensive and protracted legal battles. Playing to a finish behind closed doors when lockdown was lifted, as the sorry developments in the past fortnight have shown, would also have been hugely problematic and could have had potentially catastrophic consequences going forward. The fact the top flights in England, Germany and Spain completed their fixture lists behind closed doors this summer and Liverpool, Bayern Munich and Real Madrid won their respective leagues in the conventional manner has increased the sense of frustration felt by many fans here. Why couldn’t we have done exactly the same thing in Scotland? Comparisons, though, with those major football nations are futile. The Bundesliga resumed in mid-May and was wrapped up by the end of June. The Premier League returned in June and was done and dusted before July was out. La Liga was exactly the same. The Scottish government only gave the green light for the Premiership to kick-off again on August 1. When, then, would the nine outstanding games have been played? By mid-September at the very earliest. More to the point, when would the new term have gone ahead? Would it have been in October? Or even November? How could the poor souls responsible for scheduling have managed to cram in all 38 league games into a seven or eight month time frame? The fixture list is already crammed fuller than a city centre bar in Aberdeen as it is. The outstanding Scottish Cup semi-finals and final have to be staged before next season’s competition gets up and running. Then there is the Betfred Cup to factor in. There are European ties for Aberdeen, celtic, Motherwell and Rangers. There are a plethora of international games to consider too. But let us say the SPFL had chosen to go down that road and Premiership clubs were currently in the process of playing out the 2019/20 season. The imbecilic actions of Aberdeen players Bruce Anderson, Craig Bryson, Sam Cosgrove, Mikey Devlin, Jonny Hayes, Matty Kennedy, Dylan McGeouch and Scott McKenna and celtic defender Boli Bolingoli would have caused untold chaos. The SFA and SPFL Joint Response Group yesterday accepted a request from Minister for Public Health, Sport and Wellbeing Joe FitzPatrick to postpone the Pittodrie and Parkhead club’s games this week following the flagrant breaches of strict coronavirus protocols. That is going to cause huge headaches for everyone involved. But it is really just as well it is the new campaign, not the last one, which will be affected. When would the Premiership finally have been concluded? It would have been an almighty mess and no mistake. The new £130m television rights deal with Sky Sports has kicked in. How would that major stakeholder feel if they had to wait for months to screen their first live game and then got asked if they could accommodate a radically revised fixture list? There would unquestionably be financial repercussions. And that, given everything else our clubs are having to contend with, has to be avoided at all costs. If any more players break the guidelines in the coming weeks then First Minister Nicola Sturgeon could well carry out her threat to suspend play once again. There promise to be many more months of upheaval. If a league which celtic were leading by 13 points with eight games to play was still being contested the Scottish game would be in a far more precarious state. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude 20,026 Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Sweetheart said: LMAO the 'poor souls' at the SPFL only had to sort the fixtures for 12 teams, the rest of Scottish football doesn't restart until October. IF the season had to be ended, it could have been voided, Ajax in Holland accepted the voiding. But PL stated voiding the competition was not an option. If fixture congestion is a problem, then it's a problem of there on making as they could have voided the Scottish Cup games. It's also unclear what efforts the SPFL made to influence the government into restarting the football for 12 teams. It couldn't. It has been explained countless times to you why it couldnt. The Dutch season wasn't voided either. The final league standings were taken on the points totals teams has at the point the season was curtailed. Ajax were top and go into the CL as the team who finished top of the Eredivisie. AZ were second in the table and go into the CL as the team who finished second in the Eredivisie. Feyenoord, PSV and Willem II will all play in the Europa League based on finishing third, fourth and fifth in the table. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ger_onimo 20,488 Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 Not sure I get this... so they’re going to punish the scum and sheep players retrospectively? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
esquire8 42,725 Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 8 minutes ago, Ger_onimo said: Not sure I get this... so they’re going to punish the scum and sheep players retrospectively? Yup. Seems like they are going to do that. Lawwell has washed his hands of the player so any action won't hurt the club but will punish Aberdeen 8 fold. Have to keep ourselves squeaky clean as these cunts will want our blood if there is the slightest step out of line. Should check out the tarrier replies to this btw. Fucking insane how they think we should be punished the most yet we aren't involved in anyway shape or form. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coopsleftboot 5,512 Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 8 minutes ago, esquire8 said: Yup. Seems like they are going to do that. Lawwell has washed his hands of the player so any action won't hurt the club but will punish Aberdeen 8 fold. Have to keep ourselves squeaky clean as these cunts will want our blood if there is the slightest step out of line. Should check out the tarrier replies to this btw. Fucking insane how they think we should be punished the most yet we aren't involved in anyway shape or form. Go on.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
esquire8 42,725 Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 Nut jobs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
6superbarry6 14,159 Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 1 minute ago, esquire8 said: Nut jobs. Just when you think you can’t hate them anymore..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ger_onimo 20,488 Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 14 minutes ago, esquire8 said: Yup. Seems like they are going to do that. Lawwell has washed his hands of the player so any action won't hurt the club but will punish Aberdeen 8 fold. Have to keep ourselves squeaky clean as these cunts will want our blood if there is the slightest step out of line. Should check out the tarrier replies to this btw. Fucking insane how they think we should be punished the most yet we aren't involved in anyway shape or form. No mention of punishments for clubs, of course. So absolutely no deterrent for the ones failing to properly educate and control their players. Fully expect the league to get stopped within a few weeks because of 1 or 2 idiots Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
esquire8 42,725 Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 Just now, Ger_onimo said: No mention of punishments for clubs, of course. So absolutely no deterrent for the ones failing to properly educate and control their players. Fully expect the league to get stopped within a few weeks because of 1 or 2 idiots Lawwell won't punish himself ie the club. He is directly involved with the JRG ofcourse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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