We are getting it wrong

[BlueSuedeSambas 53,788]

I just put this into Google Translate and it came out as;

"Me no likey Ally."

[The Godfather 71,893]

We have been getting it wrong for years hence why we are where we are.

Our scouting set up is non existant.

Our youth players are not what you expect when you consider the amount of time and money we have ploughed in to our set up.

The football/tactics on show at times screams out to be given a revamp.

At times last season I often thought we would have been aswel chucking in the young boys as the 'first team' didn't really look too clever or bothered even. However a few boys aside the ones we have brought in have not exactly been great and at the level we are playing at that is a HUGE worry.

[gmcf 34,185]

It really is a case of the devil or the deep blue sea.

I think we all wanted to start last season with a team mostly made of youths to build them ready for our return to the top flight. It was probably an unreasonable expectation , mainly because most don't have the patience - proof of which was the big drop in attendances in the last few months of the season.

My guess is that scouting is the most important aspect here . We have to start identifying young players who will have a realistic chance of making the first team and have a good sale on value. I know this is sacrilege on here , but ( and puts on tin hat ! ) we have to look at what the tims are doing - buying players at low English divisions or mediocre European teams and selling them for big profit in a couple of seasons. Hopefully once we've stabilised ourselves we'll be able to grow stronger from there.

[BlueSuedeSambas 53,788]

We have been getting it wrong for years hence why we are where we are.

Our scouting set up is non existant.

Our youth players are not what you expect when you consider the amount of time and money we have ploughed in to our set up.

The football/tactics on show at times screams out to be given a revamp.

At times last season I often thought we would have been aswel chucking in the young boys as the 'first team' didn't really look too clever or bothered even. However a few boys aside the ones we have brought in have not exactly been great and at the level we are playing at that is a HUGE worry.

Once the boardroom stuff is resolved and we can build a scouting/youth set up I would be head hunting whoever runs that department at Dundee United.

With moderate resources they have developed and brought through players like Goodwillie, Russell, Kenneth, Petrie, Souttar, Gauld, Watson & Armstrong and signed players like Dixon, Gomis, Bauben, Gunning, McKay-Steven & Robertson for next to nothing.

I look at a set up and like that and wonder how well they could do with the expanded resources that we could offer them.

Obviously people want an expanded network, and I agree with that in the long term, but you have to nail down the ability to find the cream of the crop on your own doorstep before you start casting the net further IMO.

If we cat get them then maybe Steve Marsella. He's done a superb job at Inverness unearthing players mainly from the UK over the past few years and again you wonder what he could do with more resources at a bigger club.

The best signing celtic have made in the past few years is John Park. We really need to find our John Park now because it'll save and earn us millions down the line.

[RFC55 108,930]

It really is a case of the devil or the deep blue sea.

I think we all wanted to start last season with a team mostly made of youths to build them ready for our return to the top flight. It was probably an unreasonable expectation , mainly because most don't have the patience - proof of which was the big drop in attendances in the last few months of the season.

My guess is that scouting is the most important aspect here . We have to start identifying young players who will have a realistic chance of making the first team and have a good sale on value. I know this is sacrilege on here , but ( and puts on tin hat ! ) we have to look at what the tims are doing - buying players at low English divisions or mediocre European teams and selling them for big profit in a couple of seasons. Hopefully once we've stabilised ourselves we'll be able to grow stronger from there.

Paying teams like Scunthorpe 2.5 million isn't great tbh. We need them at a younger and more affordable level than that. The thing about youngsters is some will stand out and look like stars yet don't make it thorough whatever reason (that's at all teams not just us).

See when you look at it really, other than Ajax, barca, Man U to an extent not many teams "bring" through their own youngsters.

Crewe are probably one of the best in Britain for it. Think a couple of times they've had 9 of the first 11 being boys brought through from the academy.

It's a hard balance to find in all honesty and that's why at any team it should be a proper run academy which is run out with the first team imo

[gmcf 34,185]

Once the boardroom stuff is resolved and we can build a scouting/youth set up I would be head hunting whoever runs that department at Dundee United.

With moderate resources they have developed and brought through players like Goodwillie, Russell, Kenneth, Petrie, Souttar, Gauld, Watson & Armstrong and signed players like Dixon, Gomis, Bauben, Gunning, McKay-Steven & Robertson for next to nothing.

I look at a set up and like that and wonder how well they could do with the expanded resources that we could offer them.

Obviously people want an expanded network, and I agree with that in the long term, but you have to nail down the ability to find the cream of the crop on your own doorstep before you start casting the net further IMO.

If we cat get them then maybe Steve Marsella. He's done a superb job at Inverness unearthing players mainly from the UK over the past few years and again you wonder what he could do with more resources at a bigger club.

The best signing celtic have made in the past few years is John Park. We really need to find our John Park now because it'll save and earn us millions down the line.

Yep. Don't know who it is at Dundee Utd but he's certainly one to look at. Same goes with hivs - the millions we've given them over last few years on players would have paid for a scouting department.

[RFC55 108,930]

Also another point to note is, parents are now not letting their kids sign for us or them. Guy I worked with (a rangers fan) his two boys where wanted by us and he's sent them both through to hibs, the boys also played at stenny and somewhere else. Many want their kids to develop but also have a chance of the first team. His two boys are younger 12 and 14 I think but he's thinking about it longer term.

I'd agree my wee boy won't be sent to us if he's ever good enough until he's much older, we want him then it can be if he's gonae be first team.

IMO it's a waste if a career having a child play for us or them at youth level unless they're going to be like messi

[The Godfather 71,893]

Once the boardroom stuff is resolved and we can build a scouting/youth set up I would be head hunting whoever runs that department at Dundee United.

With moderate resources they have developed and brought through players like Goodwillie, Russell, Kenneth, Petrie, Souttar, Gauld, Watson & Armstrong and signed players like Dixon, Gomis, Bauben, Gunning, McKay-Steven & Robertson for next to nothing.

I look at a set up and like that and wonder how well they could do with the expanded resources that we could offer them.

Obviously people want an expanded network, and I agree with that in the long term, but you have to nail down the ability to find the cream of the crop on your own doorstep before you start casting the net further IMO.

If we cat get them then maybe Steve Marsella. He's done a superb job at Inverness unearthing players mainly from the UK over the past few years and again you wonder what he could do with more resources at a bigger club.

The best signing celtic have made in the past few years is John Park. We really need to find our John Park now because it'll save and earn us millions down the line.

The likes of Dundee United and Hibs before them done an outstanding job in terms of developing their young players and made a fair bit of money from them. You look at what we have spent and struggle to look at who we developed and sold for a good amount other than Hutton.

It’s not really good enough for a club of our stature and resources in terms of playing in Scotland to have those mentioned clubs trump us in such areas of player development. Although we are not the only ones as I don’t see them across the city bringing too many through although they do have a scouting network miles and miles ahead of our own.

Finding a John Park just now is probably at the bottom of current priorities I'd imagine and the longer we leave it the longer we will miss out IMO.

[gmcf 34,185]

Paying teams like Scunthorpe 2.5 million isn't great tbh. We need them at a younger and more affordable level than that. The thing about youngsters is some will stand out and look like stars yet don't make it thorough whatever reason (that's at all teams not just us).

See when you look at it really, other than Ajax, barca, Man U to an extent not many teams "bring" through their own youngsters.

Crewe are probably one of the best in Britain for it. Think a couple of times they've had 9 of the first 11 being boys brought through from the academy.

It's a hard balance to find in all honesty and that's why at any team it should be a proper run academy which is run out with the first team imo

Probably not best example !

I just think one of our biggest let downs is the lack of young players we've had ( whether homegrown or bought ) that we've not sold on at a big profit. Just not been enough of them.

[RFC55 108,930]

Probably not best example !

I just think one of our biggest let downs is the lack of young players we've had ( whether homegrown or bought ) that we've not sold on at a big profit. Just not been enough of them.

I definitely agree with you mate. It's shit, I noticed some have used this thread to have a go at ally again, but this is a club wide problem and not a managerial one.

This is about an infrastructure at youth level implemented by those who can make it happen

[simplythebest 11,453]

I think this sums up supporters these days. One game they don't like and they want a manager sacked. You were probably one of those who hounded out Le Guen and protested outside Ibrox (The only time I've seen the Rangers fans as divided as they are today).

If you wanted nice football and decent youth, the greatest opportunity for that to develop was under Paul Le Guen. He had a good European run, but was piss poor in the league and for this the fans wanted him out. Our fans don't have the patience for our team or manager to get it wrong on a regular basis, and if the young lads all played, and we got pumped, you'd blame McCoist and want him gone.

The real problem is, our youth just aren't good enough. You can sit and say they're playing part timers all you want, it doesn't make the technical ability of our young players any better. It's always been the case, there's been one or two stand out young players, and the rest were never good enough.

It wasn't about one game, he's had two seasons before remember.

I didn't demonstrate, I don't really believe in demonstrating for people to get sacked whether it's the boardroom or a manager. I didn't really believe Le Guen was good enough either but looking back I at least think the circumstances of how he left were wrong in supporting Ferguson over him.

Before we were trying to bring through players to help us beat Celtic to the title so the level we're at should make some difference, even simply because there's less pressure. And again it's not like I think we should have no senior players, I just believe younger players should be able to make up the squad numbers for injury, suspension and rotation, that's hardly asking for the youth 11 to be put in. For example, I'm not impressed by the Foster or Smith signings but I really don't see why we needed to sign both of them. When we couldn't play the signings McAusland didn't exactly look out of place, and that's not trying to hype him up.

While I understand the talk of patience I think it would take an incredibly young team to mean we couldn't comfortably take care of these part time leagues.

[Brian Fantana 28,894]

Lets be clear here - McCoist isn't in charge of the youth, we know the majority of them are not up to scratch so he's dropped them in favour of proven players and will bleed them in every now and again. Someone tell me what McCoist is doing wrong under this knowledge? when we have a proper board they are the ones who must sort out the youth development, it's a separate entity from the first team managers job, I wish people would realise that. McCoist as a manager has done fine this season - he's realised the youth are shite, that fans would not put up with watching that dirge we had last season week in, week out and he's building a team that will be strong enough to compete in the SPL when we return with a few additions.

[TheQueensEleven 1,355]

Not really true as most of the scottish national team youths play in this country. We have had opportunity`s to sign players but seem blind to prospects out there.

That's all well and good for the under 21's, but look at the players called up in the last year for Scotland's senior side.

There's 9 players aged 23 or under.

Stuart Armstrong - 21 - Dundee United

Barry Bannan - 23 - Crystal Palace

Gary Mackey-Steven - 23 - Dundee United

Grant Hanley - 21 - Blackburn Rovers

James Forrest (no neck) - 22 - Septic

Matt Phillips - 22 - Queens Park Rangers

Ryan Jack - 21 - Aberdeen

Jordan Rhodes - 23 - Blackburn Rovers

Tony Watt - 19 - Lierse

4 in Scotland, 4 in England and 1 in Belgium.

Most youngsters given the chance will be off to England. Most Premiership clubs in England have far superior scouting networks than any team in Scotland.

Arsenal, I would say have one of the best youth set ups in Britain and the young talent there is world class. They don't always spend big in the transfer market and develop their youth for first team football, but haven't won a trophy since 2005.

How many of our fans would be happy not placing first or second in the Premiership, not winning cups etc. for years?

[Clyde Valley 234]

Lets be clear here - McCoist isn't in charge of the youth, we know the majority of them are not up to scratch so he's dropped them in favour of proven players and will bleed them in every now and again. Someone tell me what McCoist is doing wrong under this knowledge? when we have a proper board they are the ones who must sort out the youth development, it's a separate entity from the first team managers job, I wish people would realise that. McCoist as a manager has done fine this season - he's realised the youth are shite, that fans would not put up with watching that dirge we had last season week in, week out and he's building a team that will be strong enough to compete in the SPL when we return with a few additions.

So McCoist should be saying that the youth players presented to him are sub-standard and asking for steps to be taken to rectify this problem.

[TheQueensEleven 1,355]

So McCoist should be saying that the youth players presented to him are sub-standard and asking for steps to be taken to rectify this problem.

Do you know he hasn't?

[scarkev 3,540]

That's all well and good for the under 21's, but look at the players called up in the last year for Scotland's senior side.

There's 9 players aged 23 or under.

Stuart Armstrong - 21 - Dundee United

Barry Bannan - 23 - Crystal Palace

Gary Mackey-Steven - 23 - Dundee United

Grant Hanley - 21 - Blackburn Rovers

James Forrest (no neck) - 22 - Septic

Matt Phillips - 22 - Queens Park Rangers

Ryan Jack - 21 - Aberdeen

Jordan Rhodes - 23 - Blackburn Rovers

Tony Watt - 19 - Lierse

4 in Scotland, 4 in England and 1 in Belgium.

Most youngsters given the chance will be off to England. Most Premiership clubs in England have far superior scouting networks than any team in Scotland.

Arsenal, I would say have one of the best youth set ups in Britain and the young talent there is world class. They don't always spend big in the transfer market and develop their youth for first team football, but haven't won a trophy since 2005.

How many of our fans would be happy not placing first or second in the Premiership, not winning cups etc. for years?

Erm but arsenal aren't competing in a part time league and despite not winning a trophy have continually qualified for the champions league....we are in a league that is done before a ball is kicked....we will never have a better opportunity to develop a long term plan, promote and attract young players with the opportunity to play than we had but we wasted it IMO....

[Clyde Valley 234]

Do you know he hasn't?

No. Do you know if he has?

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

An element of our support don't have the patience to give our youth a chance. Ally played youngsters after the title was mathematically ours last season. He told us it was for their future development and that the football may not be pretty What did a noteable element of the crowd do? Booed teenagers at half and full time. No doubt crushing their confidence. Shameful behaviour.

100% on the money!

We see that so often - on here if a kid has a couple of bad games they get slaughtered 'the're not Rangers class' , ' lost it' , what have the management done he is going backward' and other such negativity. I don't think our support, even some who want us to use more of the kids , have the required patience.

[The Godfather 71,893]

Erm but arsenal aren't competing in a part time league and despite not winning a trophy have continually qualified for the champions league....we are in a league that is done before a ball is kicked....we will never have a better opportunity to develop a long term plan, promote and attract young players with the opportunity to play than we had but we wasted it IMO....

Ideally all of the groundwork and planning should have been done as soon as we started off in the bottom division. However the off the field stuff and boardroom rubbish has disrupted all off that (although I doubt it would have happened if that stuff wasn't going on).

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

Erm but arsenal aren't competing in a part time league and despite not winning a trophy have continually qualified for the champions league....we are in a league that is done before a ball is kicked....we will never have a better opportunity to develop a long term plan, promote and attract young players with the opportunity to play than we had but we wasted it IMO....

Arsenal pay £Ms for some if there kids and pay them great wages - the arsenal youth ranks is not full of kids on a hundred quid a week - they are on thousands a week!

[hammer93 15,057]

I had hoped that we would have 4 or 5 young players to make the nucleus of the team,

unfortunately I dont think this current crop are good enough.

All is not lost as we have Telfer, Murdoch,Hardie,Walsh and stoney still to try the step

up, even if 2 are good enough then it would be saving us millions in the future.

[BlueSuedeSambas 53,788]

Not really relevant to youth development, but in terms of our transfer deals I think we have done ok and have just been unlucky over the last few years.

Thomson was signed for 2 million and would have gone for at least double that had he not blown his knee out. I think we would have made money on Edu too

We were unfortunate with Wilson because of his contract situation.

Naismith, Jelavic & Aluko could have all brought in big money had we not gone through administration.

Wallace is another who we could easily make a profit on now, and that figure would only be higher had we been playing top flight and European football.

Latterty is the only high profile "younger" player we have signed who we wouldn't have made money on and possibly Whittaker too.

[scarkev 3,540]

Arsenal pay £Ms for some if there kids and pay them great wages - the arsenal youth ranks is not full of kids on a hundred quid a week - they are on thousands a week!

I'm not disputing that but it's all relative.....even in the bottom tier we were still the biggest club and paying the 2nd biggest wages....arsenal are competing in a much harder league yet have invested a lot into a long term sustainable plan....on a comparative scale, the second we were confirmed in the bottom tier a plan should have been drawn up to build sustainably and profitably for our top flight return.....now the off field stuff clearly hindered that but it is still a big opportunity missed IMO....

[Brian Fantana 28,894]

So McCoist should be saying that the youth players presented to him are sub-standard and asking for steps to be taken to rectify this problem.

yes he can say that but how's it going to get rectified at the moment? it isn't so what do people expect?

[ZZed 4,510]

Real life isn't as simple as Football Manager.

So true, its more like Jenga