Big Al 55 9,252 Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 57 minutes ago, AljayBoy said: It’s called an analogy, and I used extreme examples as a way of more clearly highlighting my point, that point being that it’s an accepted practice to take action against a person charged with a crime in advance of a judge/jury returning a verdict in a trial. It’s one thing to debate whether or not the action is justified but throwing in “innocent until proven guilty” as if that wins the argument is lazy at best, when as I’ve clearly (imo) shown that that argument isn’t always a ‘winner’. The added stuff about pay, pension bla la bla is ridiculous to mention (which is why I didn’t) when compared to the football fan, so what you’ve done, knowingly or not, is put forward a straw man argument. I think it's safe to say we know what it's called, the more extreme the analogy the less analogous the example. Comparing oranges with apples if you like. There is justification in taking action pending the outcome of an investigation if there are minors involved, or people at risk. High profile companies also often take that action against employees to protect their reputation, again on full pay. However we are talking about fans of the club, not employees. I think we've also established no one is in imminent danger if K.A.I. or anyone else on the park that day attends Ibrox. Very few are saying that under no circumstances should fans be banned, there will be a few whose acts can't be condoned, as much as we would like to. It's just the fact the club haven't even bothered to engage with those fans who have been sent letters. They should be opening a dialog with the fans then coming to a decision. That would be the pragmatic approach. Our club doesn't need to ban anyone, especially not to appease the SFA or any other haters. If those fans are found guilty then the likelihood is that the courts will enforce a banning order in any case. So exactly what did the club gain from this? 20 or so more STs to sell and hopefully a lot of bad publicity. Courtyard Bear 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
K.A.I 36,183 Posted July 27, 2016 Author Share Posted July 27, 2016 9 minutes ago, solobaggins said: People are asking on what grounds the club have to confiscate your season ticket without a refund. It's right here in section 6 of the terms and conditions ( see below ) that you, as a season ticket holder agreed to these conditions in order to purchase the ticket. I'm not saying the club are correct in this matter, I'm just pointing out that we as fans have a responsibility to adhere to the rules by which all clubs in Scotland are bound by. If people don't like it then don't buy a ticket. It's as simple as that. SECTION 6 – CONDITIONS OF ISSUE AND GROUND REGULATIONS 2. The holder shall be responsible for compliance and observance by the holder and by the nominee with these Conditions of Issue (“these Conditions”) and any ground regulations governing persons entering, present at or leaving the Stadium as may be specified by the Club from time to time (“the Ground Regulations”) and any act of omission by the nominee shall be deemed to be the act or omission of the holder. Misconduct by the holder or the nominee and/or failure to adhere to these Conditions or the Ground Regulations or the holder or the nominee acting in a manner which the Club considers is detrimental to its interests or is likely in the reasonable opinion of the Club, to bring football or the Club into disrepute shall permit the Club to confiscate or forfeit (in each case without compensation) this Card and/or ban the holder and/or the nominee from attending future matches or other events at the Stadium for such period of time as the Club deems appropriate. Fantastic, another low counter poster popping up with this point of view. Point missed again. In at least one of these two cases where fans got the letters there has been a not guilty plea with a trial set for Jan with no guilt attributed or proven as of typing and certainly as of typing they letters. That's the crux of the issue. Your other point about don't like it, don't buy a ticket. I totally agree. As I said last night I think it's mental to buy a season ticket off Rangers if they can just take it off you when there's no guilt attributed with no compensation. Madness. Ozblue 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
graeme_4 34,527 Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 15 hours ago, The Dude said: I am? What's different between being banned indefinitely and being on hold indefinitely? Both would see someone having paid for a ST they can't use. If it's 'on hold' it implies that it will be reissued pending investigation or trial. Its encourages constructive dialogue and enables the 'accused' to represent their position. An indefinite ban implies your not getting it back regardless. K.A.I 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corky True Legend 2,682 Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 3 hours ago, The Dude said: You're correct. I am a cannabis user and and am a proponent for its legalisation. You are aware that doesn't make you a "junkie"? A "junkie" is usually someone with a heroin dependency (hence junkie as heroin is also known as "junk"). You are aware that just over a week after the final (and before they had appeared in court) Hibs had issued life bans to supporters? So by knowingly breaking the law you, as a Rangers fan, in my opinion, are bringing the club into disrepute; but I wouldn't want you banned for it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude 20,026 Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Just now, graeme_4 said: If it's 'on hold' it implies that it will be reissued pending investigation or trial. Its encourages constructive dialogue and enables the 'accused' to represent their position. An indefinite ban implies your not getting it back regardless. It also implies that, given the vast majority of those on the pitch won't see he inside of a court and Hibs have already issued a number of "life and indefinite bans", that Hibs will continue to issue life bans to supporters regardless of whether the legal process is complete or not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude 20,026 Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 1 minute ago, Corky True Legend said: So by knowingly breaking the law you, as a Rangers fan, in my opinion, are bringing the club into disrepute; but I wouldn't want you banned for it. The thing there is, Ive never once smoked a joint or even take drugs inside Ibrox. Were I to skin up in the Enclosure and get lifted/kicked out I wouldn't be surprised if my ST was revoked. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corky True Legend 2,682 Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 17 minutes ago, The Dude said: The thing there is, Ive never once smoked a joint or even take drugs inside Ibrox. Were I to skin up in the Enclosure and get lifted/kicked out I wouldn't be surprised if my ST was revoked. Doesn't need to be inside Ibrox for the daily Rhebel to have a headline along the lines of "Rangers Fan Arrested for Drug Offences". You know what your friends in the mhedia are like. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude 20,026 Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 6 minutes ago, Corky True Legend said: Doesn't need to be inside Ibrox for the daily Rhebel to have a headline along the lines of "Rangers Fan Arrested for Drug Offences". You know what your friends in the mhedia are like. I seriously doubt me being arrested with a couple grams of grass in my pocket is likely to make the papers. Even my local one. I mean, they haven't before at least. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 46 minutes ago, The Dude said: The thing there is, Ive never once smoked a joint or even take drugs inside Ibrox. Were I to skin up in the Enclosure and get lifted/kicked out I wouldn't be surprised if my ST was revoked. No after the Club just defended you in statment to the papers beforehand. If you want to use analogys this is like someone who advocates the legalization of cannabis then turning around and reporting people to the police for smoking it Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude 20,026 Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 2 minutes ago, Willis said: No after the Club just defended you in statment to the papers beforehand. If you want to use analogys this is like someone who advocates the legalization of cannabis then turning around and reporting people to the police for smoking it The club condoned the violence in the pitch? The statement I seen only acknowledged the "encroachment" Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Courtyard Bear 41,357 Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 3 minutes ago, The Dude said: The club condoned the violence in the pitch? The statement I seen only acknowledged the "encroachment" “We acknowledge that a tiny minority of Rangers fans also encroached on the pitch but only after having been faced with prolonged and severe provocation and in order to protect our players and officials who were being visibly attacked in front of them. Any club’s supporters would have done the same. This distressing and deeply disturbing episode would never have happened had Hibs fans behaved properly but as they swarmed across the pitch it became immediately obvious that the security procedures were inadequate and had failed.” Cant see much condemnation in that statement. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude 20,026 Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 12 minutes ago, Courtyard Bear said: “We acknowledge that a tiny minority of Rangers fans also encroached on the pitch but only after having been faced with prolonged and severe provocation and in order to protect our players and officials who were being visibly attacked in front of them. Any club’s supporters would have done the same. This distressing and deeply disturbing episode would never have happened had Hibs fans behaved properly but as they swarmed across the pitch it became immediately obvious that the security procedures were inadequate and had failed.” Cant see much condemnation in that statement. I don't see any "well done for fighting long after the players were gone". Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Courtyard Bear 41,357 Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 2 minutes ago, The Dude said: I don't see any "well done for fighting long after the players were gone". Don't see any fans will be banning fans after we take their money of them either. So we agree no condemnation. TEFTONG 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
graeme_4 34,527 Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 20 minutes ago, Courtyard Bear said: “We acknowledge that a tiny minority of Rangers fans also encroached on the pitch but only after having been faced with prolonged and severe provocation and in order to protect our players and officials who were being visibly attacked in front of them. Any club’s supporters would have done the same. This distressing and deeply disturbing episode would never have happened had Hibs fans behaved properly but as they swarmed across the pitch it became immediately obvious that the security procedures were inadequate and had failed.” Cant see much condemnation in that statement. Rangers clearly backed the fans in this statement. 'Any clubs supporters would have done the same'. Can't deny that @The Dude Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 1 minute ago, graeme_4 said: Rangers clearly backed the fans in this statement. 'Any clubs supporters would have done the same'. Can't deny that @The Dude Its complete and utter hypocrisy. Done simply to keep things running smoothly while STs were on sale. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude 20,026 Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 6 minutes ago, graeme_4 said: Rangers clearly backed the fans in this statement. 'Any clubs supporters would have done the same'. Can't deny that @The Dude Which refers to "encroachment" not the acts of violence committed. At no point does the board say that the violence which continued long after the players were cleared from the pitch was acceptable. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 2 minutes ago, The Dude said: Which refers to "encroachment" not the acts of violence committed. At no point does the board say that the violence which continued long after the players were cleared from the pitch was acceptable. They dont condemn it either. They backed us in the statement, they took our side, the only way you cant see that is if youre trying not to. The club have shafted the fans here. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
K.A.I 36,183 Posted July 27, 2016 Author Share Posted July 27, 2016 Dude stop digging Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Courtyard Bear 41,357 Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Done feeding the troll in this thread. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude 20,026 Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 3 minutes ago, Willis said: They dont condemn it either. They backed us in the statement, they took our side, the only way you cant see that is if youre trying not to. The club have shafted the fans here. You should probably read the statement made by Robertson at the C1872 launch two days after the final. However, speaking at the launch of the Club 1872 supporters group, Robertson said: "We don't condone violence and we will wait to see what comes out of the investigations. We will deal with any Rangers fans in the appropriate manner. "But we have to remember is was the Hibs fans who came over the wall. It was the Hibs' fans who ran over the half-way line towards the Rangers fans. They provoked, they goaded, they taunted. "In no shape or form do we condone any fan who came onto the pitch. http://m.heraldscotland.com/news/14518802.Stewart_Robertson__Rangers_will_punish_any_fans_found_guilty_of_Scottish_Cup_Final_disorder/?ref=mr&lp=5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude 20,026 Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 3 minutes ago, Courtyard Bear said: Done feeding the troll in this thread. That's taig talk apparently Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 4 minutes ago, The Dude said: You should probably read the statement made by Robertson at the C1872 launch two days after the final. However, speaking at the launch of the Club 1872 supporters group, Robertson said: "We don't condone violence and we will wait to see what comes out of the investigations. We will deal with any Rangers fans in the appropriate manner. "But we have to remember is was the Hibs fans who came over the wall. It was the Hibs' fans who ran over the half-way line towards the Rangers fans. They provoked, they goaded, they taunted. "In no shape or form do we condone any fan who came onto the pitch. http://m.heraldscotland.com/news/14518802.Stewart_Robertson__Rangers_will_punish_any_fans_found_guilty_of_Scottish_Cup_Final_disorder/?ref=mr&lp=5 Theres a difference between releasing a statement to C1872 who are in the minority and most fans wont have seen. He also blames the hibs fans, which means hes not blaming us. Youre shite at trolling. If your happy with fellow fans being banned after the statement the Club released then fine but you clearly have a different definition of what being a Bear means than I do. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude 20,026 Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 2 minutes ago, Willis said: Theres a difference between releasing a statement to C1872 who are in the minority and most fans wont have seen. He also blames the hibs fans, which means hes not blaming us. Youre shite at trolling. If your happy with fellow fans being banned after the statement the Club released then fine but you clearly have a different definition of what being a Bear means than I do. "In no shape or form do we condone any fan who came onto the pitch." You're shite at reading. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoplandStandBear 995 Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 4 hours ago, WGOH said: Your posts get worse the more this thread rages on The club don't want the fans who got arrested at the games, they make it perfectly clear and have done for years. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SasaPapacLoyal 348 Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 8 minutes ago, The Dude said: "we will wait to see what comes out of the investigations. We will deal with any Rangers fans in the appropriate manner" They haven't done that though. They've jumped the gun and betrayed quite a few paying fans Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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