Bigdave30 8,705 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 10 minutes ago, PGWoodwind said: You think that comparing driving a car instead of walking everywhere to refusing a vaccine for no reason is logical? When is it ok to force people to do things? Let’s have persons A (unvaccinated) and persons B (everyone else) You've made the proposition that it’s ok to force things on persons A if their actions (or inactions in this case) result in the increased likelihood of death or serious illness befalling either themselves or more importantly persons B with the caveat that increasing the risks to both parties is only acceptable if you can see a benefit to persons A. I likened the scenario to Persons A being drivers and Persons B being everyone else because you were using shite car analogies and it’s the first thing that popped into my head. I hope society makes you take the bus. So aye. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGWoodwind 119 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 3 minutes ago, Bigdave30 said: When is it ok to force people to do things? Let’s have persons A (unvaccinated) and persons B (everyone else) You've made the proposition that it’s ok to force things on persons A if their actions (or inactions in this case) result in the increased likelihood of death or serious illness befalling either themselves or more importantly persons B with the caveat that increasing the risks to both parties is only acceptable if you can see a benefit to persons A. I likened the scenario to Persons A being drivers and Persons B being everyone else because you were using shite car analogies and it’s the first thing that popped into my head. I hope society makes you take the bus. So aye. But you agree it's okay to force people to do things if it helps to prevent them harming others. Or do you actually think people should be allowed to drive through red lights? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudrupsleftfoot 10,874 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 2 minutes ago, PGWoodwind said: For me it's 100% yes to the first two - both are examples of people wrongly thinking they can "do their own research" so end up believing some nonsense they've read online. The third one doesn't make someone an anti-vaccer if they're just against it being forced. Let's get over the fact even Fauci was stumped by the Israeli research on natural immunity conferring a 30 odd times more robust protection to infection than the Pfizer vaccine, and a Lancet review concluded there is no evidence for boosters needed for the general population, i.e. this isn't your Mrs' hairdresser on facebook. Is your position then, that no matter what is recommended to you by the Government that every time under any circumstance you will accept it's in your personal best interest and follow along? Willis 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Specky Forum Organiser 64,729 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 Heard via an extremely unreliable source that out of the 4.2 million jabbed in Scotland only 5 have died due to it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudrupsleftfoot 10,874 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 18 minutes ago, MisterC said: Yes, yes, and yes Agrees that 12 year olds should be forced to get a vaccine to travel by train and has the audacity to think he's on the right side of history. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitre_mouldmaster 21,509 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 14 minutes ago, Laudrupsleftfoot said: Describe anti-vaxer (genuine question)? Do you include those who don't want the vaccine because they have previously had Covid and still have a high level of antibodies? People double jabbed but will not accept taking a third until there is strong evidence they need to? People in favour of Covid vaccines for the vulnerable, but against 12 year olds being forced to get one if they want to get on a train as Trudeau is forcing in Canada? You have the whole line between absolute anti-vax mentalists who think they will control out brains down to folk who are just scared of needles. I dont have the same contempt for the vaccine hesitant side of the scale as I do for the absolute moonhowlers, but for simplicity, they are all on the anti vax scale. I would say that any one who goes against the recommended advice from the experts who are saying to get the vaccine are anti-vax. Sure there might be some cunt out there who had covid 6 months ago and is actually analysing his anti-body count in a lab each day and knows he is fighting fit. More likely though is it will be Paul the Amazon packer who had covid 12 months ago, has no idea what his antibody count is and how he will react to the delta strain. For all the effort Paul puts in, he is still not going to be qualified to actually make a better judgement call than the experts who are telling him to get vaccinated. For that reason if he is saying he does not need the vaccine because 'reasons', then he is anti-vax as he is actively avoiding taking a vaccine that experts are advising him to take. In short, basically all of the above are 'anti-vax' with the exception of the one about Canada. That is Anti-Passport. If they stated that a 12 year old was in more danger of the vaccine than covid, then this would again be anti-vax. PGWoodwind 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGWoodwind 119 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 1 minute ago, Laudrupsleftfoot said: Let's get over the fact even Fauci was stumped by the Israeli research on natural immunity conferring a 30 odd times more robust protection to infection than the Pfizer vaccine, and a Lancet review concluded there is no evidence for boosters needed for the general population, i.e. this isn't your Mrs' hairdresser on facebook. Is your position then, that no matter what is recommended to you by the Government that every time under any circumstance you will accept it's in your personal best interest and follow along? The government? It's the consensus of the entire world's medical experts that I'm saying it's idiotic to ignore. That's one thing that's so stupid about most of the anti-vaccers, they keep mentioning the government. If the only people saying to take the vaccine was the UK government I wouldn't have taken it. I wouldn't trust them to get the research right in the first place and I'd suspect they'd lie about it even if they did. But like I said earlier, when it's the government of every country in the world and every doctor, every medical researcher etc. saying the same thing then it gets in to the territory of having to believe in an insane global conspiracy for it to be untrustworthy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGWoodwind 119 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 4 minutes ago, mitre_mouldmaster said: You have the whole line between absolute anti-vax mentalists who think they will control out brains down to folk who are just scared of needles. I dont have the same contempt for the vaccine hesitant side of the scale as I do for the absolute moonhowlers, but for simplicity, they are all on the anti vax scale. I don't even have any contempt for someone who is avoiding it cause of a severe needle phobia. I think if the only way to get the protection the vaccine offers was to lock yourself in a room full of tarantulas for a couple of hours I'd have to really think about it. Only if they've got a proper panic attack-inducing phobia though, if they're just a pussy then I don't have any sympathy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigdave30 8,705 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 6 minutes ago, PGWoodwind said: But you agree it's okay to force people to do things if it helps to prevent them harming others. Or do you actually think people should be allowed to drive through red lights? It depends on the situation, we would need to get into specifics. Is it ok to ban cars because some drivers smash into innocent bystanders and other road users - no Is it ok to force people to put chemicals in their body regardless of their opinion on them for the benefit of themselves or people at large - no You've still not explained to me exactly what I’ve said that is illogical. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGWoodwind 119 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 3 minutes ago, Bigdave30 said: It depends on the situation, we would need to get into specifics. That is exactly the point I was making when I mentioned red lights - pretty much everyone in the world agrees that it's sometimes okay to force people to do things. You were the one who mentioned logic, I wouldn't have brought it in to it, but if you really want me to point it out it was when you equated taking a risk for a benefit (where there's a finite risk to benefit ratio) to taking a risk for no benefit (where the risk to benefit ratio is infinite). Can only apologise to everyone else who had to read that level of boffin-ness. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudrupsleftfoot 10,874 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 14 minutes ago, PGWoodwind said: The government? It's the consensus of the entire world's medical experts that I'm saying it's idiotic to ignore. That's one thing that's so stupid about most of the anti-vaccers, they keep mentioning the government. If the only people saying to take the vaccine was the UK government I wouldn't have taken it. I wouldn't trust them to get the research right in the first place and I'd suspect they'd lie about it even if they did. But like I said earlier, when it's the government of every country in the world and every doctor, every medical researcher etc. saying the same thing then it gets in to the territory of having to believe in an insane global conspiracy for it to be untrustworthy. Firstly to be clear, I think the vaccines have largely been a great success and hopefully will continue to keep those vulnerable from dying. You should be more careful with some of the assumptions you make. There is no 'consensus of the entire world's medical experts', point me towards where our consensus here amongst our so called medical experts are currently pointing to only allowing 12 year olds on trains if they're vaccinated the way that Canada is. The decisions I'm critical of are largely political ones. crazy bob swollenbaws 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGWoodwind 119 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 Just now, Laudrupsleftfoot said: Firstly to be clear, I think the vaccines have largely been a great success and hopefully will continue to keep those vulnerable from dying. You should be more careful with some of the assumptions you make. There is no 'consensus of the entire world's medical experts', point me towards where our consensus here amongst our so called medical experts are currently pointing to only allowing 12 year olds on trains if they're vaccinated the way that Canada is. The decisions I'm critical of are largely political ones. I said the first two were, not the Canadian train one Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitre_mouldmaster 21,509 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 9 minutes ago, Bigdave30 said: It depends on the situation, we would need to get into specifics. Is it ok to ban cars because some drivers smash into innocent bystanders and other road users - no Is it ok to force people to put chemicals in their body regardless of their opinion on them for the benefit of themselves or people at large - no You've still not explained to me exactly what I’ve said that is illogical. Cyclists are not allowed to use the motorways whilst on their bikes. They are not being discriminated against. They are not having their freedom of access or human rights restricted just because they fail to obey the rules. If the cyclist decides to instead, go sit a test and get a driving licence, then pay the government some money for road tax etc, and get a car, they are then allowed to enter the motorway in their car. Or they could hire a taxi, or other form of motor vehicle transport to do it. They would however be denied access on their bike, because they are not following the rules. To be honest, im not 100% sure why I posted this, cunts were going all off on different 'car' angles and I wanted to join in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudrupsleftfoot 10,874 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 2 minutes ago, PGWoodwind said: I said the first two were, not the Canadian train one There's no 'consensus of the entire world's medical experts' on covid boosters either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunk and disorderly. 14,428 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 2 hours ago, Madina said: It's something like 90% of the adult population here are double vaccinated, yet cases are still rising. The vaccine as far as I'm aware is pretty poor at protecting against the delta variant. We will never eradicate covid, even if 99.9% of the population was double dosed. It's something we have to live with, the same as cold, flu and other respiratory complaints Don't know if you have heard but there is a vaccine for the flu. Covid is more deadly too and can have long term implications. Anyhow, why don't you wear a seatbelt? Is it a size issue/personal freedom choice or did the Clunk Click (even on the shortest trick) advert by Jimmy Savvile put you off? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGWoodwind 119 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 1 minute ago, Laudrupsleftfoot said: There's no 'consensus of the entire world's medical experts' on covid boosters either. Can you elaborate on that? I.e. what's not agreed upon and who are the opposing factions? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigdave30 8,705 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 10 minutes ago, PGWoodwind said: That is exactly the point I was making when I mentioned red lights - pretty much everyone in the world agrees that it's sometimes okay to force people to do things. You were the one who mentioned logic, I wouldn't have brought it in to it, but if you really want me to point it out it was when you equated taking a risk for a benefit (where there's a finite risk to benefit ratio) to taking a risk for no benefit (where the risk to benefit ratio is infinite). Can only apologise to everyone else who had to read that level of boffin-ness. It’s is in specific situations. I did because the logic behind your argument of why it is ok to force vaccines on people who do not want them doesn’t stand up to even lazy criticism. Out of curiosity have any of the vaccine enforcement warriors compiled statistics to what is the R rate of a vaccinated person with covid vs the R rate of an unvaccinated person with covid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigdave30 8,705 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 9 minutes ago, mitre_mouldmaster said: Cyclists are not allowed to use the motorways whilst on their bikes. They are not being discriminated against. They are not having their freedom of access or human rights restricted just because they fail to obey the rules. If the cyclist decides to instead, go sit a test and get a driving licence, then pay the government some money for road tax etc, and get a car, they are then allowed to enter the motorway in their car. Or they could hire a taxi, or other form of motor vehicle transport to do it. They would however be denied access on their bike, because they are not following the rules. To be honest, im not 100% sure why I posted this, cunts were going all off on different 'car' angles and I wanted to join in. On yer bike mate mitre_mouldmaster 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGWoodwind 119 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 4 minutes ago, Bigdave30 said: It’s is in specific situations. I did because the logic behind your argument of why it is ok to force vaccines on people who do not want them doesn’t stand up to even lazy criticism. What do you mean "doesn't stand up"? The logic of my argument is no more complex than "it's okay to force people to do things if it benefits others". I don't know what you think the logic of it is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudrupsleftfoot 10,874 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 4 minutes ago, PGWoodwind said: Can you elaborate on that? I.e. what's not agreed upon and who are the opposing factions? The World Health Organisation and AztraZeneca argued there was no evidence for their widespread use for a start. Countries also have different variations of booster programmes too so there isn't the 'consensus of the entire world's medical experts' like you've claimed there is. Rowley Birkin 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10pshortof17pound 2,493 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 Kudos to @Dan Deacon for the OP - 23 pages of mayhem ensued and if I’ve been paying attention he’s fucked off to Wales. Darth Bear 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowley Birkin 8,682 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 11 minutes ago, Drunk and disorderly. said: Don't know if you have heard but there is a vaccine for the flu. Covid is more deadly too and can have long term implications. Anyhow, why don't you wear a seatbelt? Is it a size issue/personal freedom choice or did the Clunk Click (even on the shortest trick) advert by Jimmy Savvile put you off? i dont think there is, its a flu jab that those vulnerable to it get it once a year to lessen the effects if you catch it which is exactly what this 'vaccine' does as covid is also a type of flu i think everyone is getting caught up by calling it a vaccine its not a definite cure like the measles vaccine its here for good now and those vulnerable to it will get a jab each year just like the flu jab the fact people are being told to get three extra jabs just to keep their jobs or go to a restaurant is whats pissing people off Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowley Birkin 8,682 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 4 minutes ago, 10pshortof17pound said: Kudos to @Dan Deacon for the OP - 23 pages of mayhem ensued and if I’ve been paying attention he’s fucked off to Wales. bwhahahaha excellent i bet you he'll come back moaning about not being allowed in places because he doesnt have the correct passport Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitre_mouldmaster 21,509 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 1 minute ago, Rowley Birkin said: i dont think there is, its a flu jab that those vulnerable to it get it once a year to lessen the effects if you catch it which is exactly what this 'vaccine' does as covid is also a type of flu i think everyone is getting caught up by calling it a vaccine its not a definite cure like the measles vaccine its here for good now and those vulnerable to it will get a jab each year just like the flu jab the fact people are being told to get three extra jabs just to keep their jobs or go to a restaurant is whats pissing people off Covid is not a type of flu, any more than a turnip is a type of Elephant. Covid is from the Coronavirus family, flu is cause by a virus from the influenza family. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madina 3,817 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 20 minutes ago, Drunk and disorderly. said: Don't know if you have heard but there is a vaccine for the flu. Covid is more deadly too and can have long term implications. Anyhow, why don't you wear a seatbelt? Is it a size issue/personal freedom choice or did the Clunk Click (even on the shortest trick) advert by Jimmy Savvile put you off? Dont know if you've heard but the vast majority of people outwith the elderly/vulnerable category dont get the flu vaccine. They're certainly not coerced into it by being excluded from football, concerts etc if they choose not to get it 🙄 As I said previously I was being sarcastic. Do keep up Rowley Birkin 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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