John Fleck

[macleod1873 0]

Id like to see him given a few games towards the end of the season but if the league is close we wont see him

[broxi51 48]

I still dont think they know his best position, he kind of roams all over the place, but has a big future if handled right, but currently aaron is the one who should be pushing the first team as the left side of midfield is the weakest it has been in many a year.

[bringonthbarca 25]

don't think he'l be wasted. hes certainly got talent and will make the break through eventually. Would have him on the bench every game so tha even getting 15 - 20 mins here and there when appropriate would bring him along nicely

[RyanMac 185]

if Smith remains the manager, Fleck will be wasted

Once Fleck is fully fit he'll be back on the bench. He will surely be given some game time this season if he keeps progressing. Smith gave him his first team debut and has promoted him from the under 19 side as he reckons he's too good. He was making the bench before his injury and I'm sure Smith said he'd be used in the first team this season. I don't think it's fair to make such a sweeping statement claiming he'll be "wasted" with absolutely nothing to back it up.

A complete distrust for any player coming through our youth system, is what I back my assumption up with. Hes a shite bag, will never take the 'risk', yet will play passengers every game and of course his favourites.

How about mentioning the fact that Walter is in one of the most stressful jobs in World football, where every decision he makes. in and out-with football, is scrutinised. The fact that we won't accept second place this year, and Rangers as a club being in the spotlight, for the wrong reasons, will be adding to pressure in the goldfish bowl of Glasgow.

I wouldn't play untested youth players over players you know inside out, unless we were coasting a game.

There is too much at stake, thats how i think Smith is feeling.

[vandelay 0]

Spot on. If he comes in and makes a mistake/plays poor fans will pick up on it. The demands of this club are higher than say Hibs where youth will get a chance purely on the fact the club is skint. We can't afford to take risks as it is.

That said I still think bringing them on for the last 20 mins is the way in games we've wrapped up and is good for the lad, unfortunately there's been few occasions this season where we've coasted to victory where can take such a risk. We'll see Fleck more this season but just don't expect Rooney-esque first team exposure too soon.

[Polo 1,433]

if Smith remains the manager, Fleck will be wasted

Once Fleck is fully fit he'll be back on the bench. He will surely be given some game time this season if he keeps progressing. Smith gave him his first team debut and has promoted him from the under 19 side as he reckons he's too good. He was making the bench before his injury and I'm sure Smith said he'd be used in the first team this season. I don't think it's fair to make such a sweeping statement claiming he'll be "wasted" with absolutely nothing to back it up.

Barry Ferguson was ready when he was 17 but Smith never gave him a start until 2 months before his 20th birthday. He then held him so far back that Ferguson was probably going to go. Just as well Advocaat could spot a £7.5 million Premiership Captain in Bazza.

Sorry, but I don't agree with that. From the club's perspective, Barry Ferguson wasn't wasted by Smith at all.

In fact, after being given first team exposure by Smith we've gone to have a great club servant, a marvellous captain (cue the anti-Ferguson brigade ) and even made a couple of million on him in terms of transfer fees. Anything but a waste. And therefore not a precedent for claiming Smith will waste Fleck.

Unless of course you want to throw a few unsubstantiated claims into the mix - such as "Ferguson would have left if Smith stayed in charge" and "Ferguson would have broken into the team earlier if Smith hadn't been in charge". There would be absolutely no basis for claiming that, but I wouldn't be surprised if people tried anyway :unionflag:

[Youllneverwinaway 0]

if Smith remains the manager, Fleck will be wasted

Once Fleck is fully fit he'll be back on the bench. He will surely be given some game time this season if he keeps progressing. Smith gave him his first team debut and has promoted him from the under 19 side as he reckons he's too good. He was making the bench before his injury and I'm sure Smith said he'd be used in the first team this season. I don't think it's fair to make such a sweeping statement claiming he'll be "wasted" with absolutely nothing to back it up.

Barry Ferguson was ready when he was 17 but Smith never gave him a start until 2 months before his 20th birthday. He then held him so far back that Ferguson was probably going to go. Just as well Advocaat could spot a £7.5 million Premiership Captain in Bazza.

Sorry, but I don't agree with that. From the club's perspective, Barry Ferguson wasn't wasted by Smith at all.

In fact, after being given first team exposure by Smith we've gone to have a great club servant, a marvellous captain (cue the anti-Ferguson brigade ) and even made a couple of million on him in terms of transfer fees. Anything but a waste. And therefore not a precedent for claiming Smith will waste Fleck.

Unless of course you want to throw a few unsubstantiated claims into the mix - such as "Ferguson would have left if Smith stayed in charge" and "Ferguson would have broken into the team earlier if Smith hadn't been in charge". There would be absolutely no basis for claiming that, but I wouldn't be surprised if people tried anyway :unionflag:

OR - I COULD SIMPLY SUBSTANTIATE MY CLAIMS.

And Ferguson believes it was the arrival of Advocaat to replace Walter Smith which saved his Rangers career, the Dutchman’s predecessor having, at least in the player’s opinion, given him little chance to shine in a light blue jersey. He said: "At the time I was at a crossroad. I did not know if I was going to have a future at Rangers but before he came he phoned me to say he was desperate to keep me.

"He said he had seen all the videos and I was going to be his main man in midfield, that was a great boost for me.

"I know at the time I said I didn’t like Walter Smith, but being that bit older I can now understand the pressure he was under with the ten-in-a-row thing. But knowing I was going to be playing the following season was a big help.

"Advocaat also made me captain at a young age. To be honest, it came as a bit of a shock. But it was also great, I’d supported Rangers as a boy and to be made captain was a massive thing for me. "

[Polo 1,433]

OR - I COULD SIMPLY SUBSTANTIATE MY CLAIMS.

And Ferguson believes it was the arrival of Advocaat to replace Walter Smith which saved his Rangers career, the Dutchman’s predecessor having, at least in the player’s opinion, given him little chance to shine in a light blue jersey. He said: "At the time I was at a crossroad. I did not know if I was going to have a future at Rangers but before he came he phoned me to say he was desperate to keep me.

To be fair, if Smith was leaving then there's no way he was going to make any promises to a young Ferguson about his chances under the incoming manager - that would of course be something for the new manager to do.

"I know at the time I said I didn’t like Walter Smith, but being that bit older I can now understand the pressure he was under with the ten-in-a-row thing. But knowing I was going to be playing the following season was a big help.

I like that quote

...having, at least in the player’s opinion, given him little chance to shine in a light blue jersey..........(FOLLOWED BY) He said he had seen all the videos

- this surely goes to show that he had been given a chance to shine after all.

[Youllneverwinaway 0]

OR - I COULD SIMPLY SUBSTANTIATE MY CLAIMS.

And Ferguson believes it was the arrival of Advocaat to replace Walter Smith which saved his Rangers career, the Dutchman’s predecessor having, at least in the player’s opinion, given him little chance to shine in a light blue jersey. He said: "At the time I was at a crossroad. I did not know if I was going to have a future at Rangers but before he came he phoned me to say he was desperate to keep me.

To be fair, if Smith was leaving then there's no way he was going to make any promises to a young Ferguson about his chances under the incoming manager - that would of course be something for the new manager to do.

"I know at the time I said I didn’t like Walter Smith, but being that bit older I can now understand the pressure he was under with the ten-in-a-row thing. But knowing I was going to be playing the following season was a big help.

I like that quote

...having, at least in the player’s opinion, given him little chance to shine in a light blue jersey..........(FOLLOWED BY) He said he had seen all the videos

- this surely goes to show that he had been given a chance to shine after all.

Dont know how to do the fancy quote thing so 1,2,3 for me.

1) Smith should have made that clear when he was 17,18 and 19 instead of waiting til he was 20 to give him 5 starts.

2) My main point and Watties achilles heal. Standing by players of old when youngsters could have freshened things up and perhaps won us the tenth.

3) Im sure the videos could have been International Under 21, Reserve games as well as the 5 or 6 SPL starts Fergie got.

Bottom line is Fergie was for the off as he was frustrated under Smith. Smith has shown us NO EVIDENCE that he will give youth a chance and therefor the likes of Lennon, Furman, Fleck and Aaron are onto plums while he is in charge

[Youllneverwinaway 0]

OR - I COULD SIMPLY SUBSTANTIATE MY CLAIMS.

And Ferguson believes it was the arrival of Advocaat to replace Walter Smith which saved his Rangers career, the Dutchman’s predecessor having, at least in the player’s opinion, given him little chance to shine in a light blue jersey. He said: "At the time I was at a crossroad. I did not know if I was going to have a future at Rangers but before he came he phoned me to say he was desperate to keep me.

To be fair, if Smith was leaving then there's no way he was going to make any promises to a young Ferguson about his chances under the incoming manager - that would of course be something for the new manager to do.

"I know at the time I said I didn’t like Walter Smith, but being that bit older I can now understand the pressure he was under with the ten-in-a-row thing. But knowing I was going to be playing the following season was a big help.

I like that quote

...having, at least in the player’s opinion, given him little chance to shine in a light blue jersey..........(FOLLOWED BY) He said he had seen all the videos

- this surely goes to show that he had been given a chance to shine after all.

Dont know how to do the fancy quote thing so 1,2,3 for me.

1) Smith should have made that clear when he was 17,18 and 19 instead of waiting til he was 20 to give him 5 starts.

2) My main point and Watties achilles heal. Standing by players of old when youngsters could have freshened things up and perhaps won us the tenth.

3) Im sure the videos could have been International Under 21, Reserve games as well as the 5 or 6 SPL starts Fergie got.

Bottom line is Fergie was for the off as he was frustrated under Smith. Smith has shown us NO EVIDENCE that he will give youth a chance and therefor the likes of Lennon, Furman, Fleck and Aaron are onto plums while he is in charge

[Polo 1,433]

Dont know how to do the fancy quote thing so 1,2,3 for me.

1) Smith should have made that clear when he was 17,18 and 19 instead of waiting til he was 20 to give him 5 starts.

2) My main point and Watties achilles heal. Standing by players of old when youngsters could have freshened things up and perhaps won us the tenth.

3) Im sure the videos could have been International Under 21, Reserve games as well as the 5 or 6 SPL starts Fergie got.

Bottom line is Fergie was for the off as he was frustrated under Smith. Smith has shown us NO EVIDENCE that he will give youth a chance and therefor the likes of Lennon, Furman, Fleck and Aaron are onto plums while he is in charge

1) He gave him his first start when he was just turned 19. In any case, if you consider the sort of players we had at our disposal and the fact we were going for 10IAR then taking risks probably wasn't an option. McCall (?), Ian Ferguson, Albertz, Durrant, and Gazza (and Laudrup) were all vying for midfield roles.

2) Kind of dealt with that in point 1. Speculating that youngsters could have won us 10 is simply speculation

3) I don't know how many under 21 games he'd have played by then and I doubt they would have been recording reserve games back then either. They barely do it now - one guy with a handheld video camera is the usual style.

Smith has shown us plenty evidence that he'll give youth a chance. Ferguson being one example, although I doubt you'll accept that one. Fleck is another - making him the youngest Rangers player for God knows how long. Furman featured for the first team last season and Aaron made a long-awaited debut at the weekend. Loy has played for us this season too. He is giving them a CHANCE. Perhaps not enough of a chance as some would like, but it's still a chance.

I've mentioned this a few times before on here, but which youth players has Walter Smith not given a chance at Rangers who have gone on to prove him wrong and become stars we'd want in our team? Smith didn't get rid of Ferguson and he hasn't got rid of Fleck so it's pointless to use them as examples.

[Youllneverwinaway 0]

Dont know how to do the fancy quote thing so 1,2,3 for me.

1) Smith should have made that clear when he was 17,18 and 19 instead of waiting til he was 20 to give him 5 starts.

2) My main point and Watties achilles heal. Standing by players of old when youngsters could have freshened things up and perhaps won us the tenth.

3) Im sure the videos could have been International Under 21, Reserve games as well as the 5 or 6 SPL starts Fergie got.

Bottom line is Fergie was for the off as he was frustrated under Smith. Smith has shown us NO EVIDENCE that he will give youth a chance and therefor the likes of Lennon, Furman, Fleck and Aaron are onto plums while he is in charge

1) He gave him his first start when he was just turned 19. In any case, if you consider the sort of players we had at our disposal and the fact we were going for 10IAR then taking risks probably wasn't an option. McCall (?), Ian Ferguson, Albertz, Durrant, and Gazza (and Laudrup) were all vying for midfield roles.

2) Kind of dealt with that in point 1. Speculating that youngsters could have won us 10 is simply speculation

3) I don't know how many under 21 games he'd have played by then and I doubt they would have been recording reserve games back then either. They barely do it now - one guy with a handheld video camera is the usual style.

Smith has shown us plenty evidence that he'll give youth a chance. Ferguson being one example, although I doubt you'll accept that one. Fleck is another - making him the youngest Rangers player for God knows how long. Furman featured for the first team last season and Aaron made a long-awaited debut at the weekend. Loy has played for us this season too. He is giving them a CHANCE. Perhaps not enough of a chance as some would like, but it's still a chance.

I've mentioned this a few times before on here, but which youth players has Walter Smith not given a chance at Rangers who have gone on to prove him wrong and become stars we'd want in our team? Smith didn't get rid of Ferguson and he hasn't got rid of Fleck so it's pointless to use them as examples.

Aw come on............are you having a giraffe ?

Furman, Loy, Fleck and Aaron have manged a total of 120 minutes between them. Thats right 30 minutes per man.

At least back your point up with something decent

[docspiderman 1,228]

if Smith remains the manager, Fleck will be wasted

Once Fleck is fully fit he'll be back on the bench. He will surely be given some game time this season if he keeps progressing. Smith gave him his first team debut and has promoted him from the under 19 side as he reckons he's too good. He was making the bench before his injury and I'm sure Smith said he'd be used in the first team this season. I don't think it's fair to make such a sweeping statement claiming he'll be "wasted" with absolutely nothing to back it up.

A complete distrust for any player coming through our youth system, is what I back my assumption up with. Hes a shite bag, will never take the 'risk', yet will play passengers every game and of course his favourites.

How about mentioning the fact that Walter is in one of the most stressful jobs in World football, where every decision he makes. in and out-with football, is scrutinised. The fact that we won't accept second place this year, and Rangers as a club being in the spotlight, for the wrong reasons, will be adding to pressure in the goldfish bowl of Glasgow.

I wouldn't play untested youth players over players you know inside out, unless we were coasting a game.

There is too much at stake, thats how i think Smith is feeling.

Yes far more pressure than say Barcelona or Manchester Utd or any team in bigger more competitive leagues with a lot more at stake than in our little league? Think about it.

[Polo 1,433]

Dont know how to do the fancy quote thing so 1,2,3 for me.

1) Smith should have made that clear when he was 17,18 and 19 instead of waiting til he was 20 to give him 5 starts.

2) My main point and Watties achilles heal. Standing by players of old when youngsters could have freshened things up and perhaps won us the tenth.

3) Im sure the videos could have been International Under 21, Reserve games as well as the 5 or 6 SPL starts Fergie got.

Bottom line is Fergie was for the off as he was frustrated under Smith. Smith has shown us NO EVIDENCE that he will give youth a chance and therefor the likes of Lennon, Furman, Fleck and Aaron are onto plums while he is in charge

1) He gave him his first start when he was just turned 19. In any case, if you consider the sort of players we had at our disposal and the fact we were going for 10IAR then taking risks probably wasn't an option. McCall (?), Ian Ferguson, Albertz, Durrant, and Gazza (and Laudrup) were all vying for midfield roles.

2) Kind of dealt with that in point 1. Speculating that youngsters could have won us 10 is simply speculation

3) I don't know how many under 21 games he'd have played by then and I doubt they would have been recording reserve games back then either. They barely do it now - one guy with a handheld video camera is the usual style.

Smith has shown us plenty evidence that he'll give youth a chance. Ferguson being one example, although I doubt you'll accept that one. Fleck is another - making him the youngest Rangers player for God knows how long. Furman featured for the first team last season and Aaron made a long-awaited debut at the weekend. Loy has played for us this season too. He is giving them a CHANCE. Perhaps not enough of a chance as some would like, but it's still a chance.

I've mentioned this a few times before on here, but which youth players has Walter Smith not given a chance at Rangers who have gone on to prove him wrong and become stars we'd want in our team? Smith didn't get rid of Ferguson and he hasn't got rid of Fleck so it's pointless to use them as examples.

Aw come on............are you having a giraffe ?

Furman, Loy, Fleck and Aaron have manged a total of 120 minutes between them. Thats right 30 minutes per man.

At least back your point up with something decent

You said he hadn't give any of them a chance. He has!

I'd also like you to answer my point in bold please

[broxi51 48]

cup final doesn't count as mccoist managed the scottish cup games so he chose fleck for that one.

[Poetry_In_Blue 1,043]

People also seem to forget that Walter signed a very young Gattuso, and Advocaat got rid of him!

It's true, us as fans want immediate success if a youngster doesn't perform when given a chance then a lot of us will get on their backs which could cause them a loss in confidence.

Quotation from the Under 19 Cup Report regarding Fleck below:

Kirkwood was able to draft John Fleck into his starting eleven for the cup tie but admits the only reason for his inclusion was to get the prodigious talent some match action after his recent injury woe.

He said "We brought John to give him a run out. He has been out of action recently and needs games under his belt but he will be back with the reserves and first team soon."

That really doesn't sound to me that Fleck is going to be wasted, that sounds to me like common sense!

[Polo 1,433]

People also seem to forget that Walter signed a very young Gattuso, and Advocaat got rid of him!

It's true, us as fans want immediate success if a youngster doesn't perform when given a chance then a lot of us will get on their backs which could cause them a loss in confidence.

Quotation from the Under 19 Cup Report regarding Fleck below:

Kirkwood was able to draft John Fleck into his starting eleven for the cup tie but admits the only reason for his inclusion was to get the prodigious talent some match action after his recent injury woe.

He said "We brought John to give him a run out. He has been out of action recently and needs games under his belt but he will be back with the reserves and first team soon."

That really doesn't sound to me that Fleck is going to be wasted, that sounds to me like common sense!

[Bobby83 0]

I would consider not letting him start a game until he was 19-20 as wasting him. Thats 2-3s of first team development gone and potential wasted.

[papaguy51 912]

It all boils down to how good he is (for me, anyway) instead of his age.

Is a 16 year old John Fleck better than a 30 year old McCulloch or 24 year old Charlie Adam? Absolutely.

[Poetry_In_Blue 1,043]

He also got a run out in the reserves yesterday, came on as a sub in the second half, not sure who he replaced might have even been Naismith!

[RyanMac 185]

if Smith remains the manager, Fleck will be wasted

Once Fleck is fully fit he'll be back on the bench. He will surely be given some game time this season if he keeps progressing. Smith gave him his first team debut and has promoted him from the under 19 side as he reckons he's too good. He was making the bench before his injury and I'm sure Smith said he'd be used in the first team this season. I don't think it's fair to make such a sweeping statement claiming he'll be "wasted" with absolutely nothing to back it up.

A complete distrust for any player coming through our youth system, is what I back my assumption up with. Hes a shite bag, will never take the 'risk', yet will play passengers every game and of course his favourites.

How about mentioning the fact that Walter is in one of the most stressful jobs in World football, where every decision he makes. in and out-with football, is scrutinised. The fact that we won't accept second place this year, and Rangers as a club being in the spotlight, for the wrong reasons, will be adding to pressure in the goldfish bowl of Glasgow.

I wouldn't play untested youth players over players you know inside out, unless we were coasting a game.

There is too much at stake, thats how i think Smith is feeling.

Yes far more pressure than say Barcelona or Manchester Utd or any team in bigger more competitive leagues with a lot more at stake than in our little league? Think about it.

Our league may be small, but that just adds to the pressure of winning all the time. Any Old Firm manager will tell you that this is one of the hardest jobs.

Do you think SAF is under more pressure at Man Utd that WS is here? Disillusion if you do.

[papaguy51 912]

Walter is under a shitload of pressure, but look at Gabriel Rodriguez or Carlos Ischia.

In terms of fan pressure and the implication that defeat has on either River Plate or Boca Juniors respectively, they have a much harder and more pressurised job than Smith, yet both clubs' record of bringing through young talent is absolutely impeccable and on a different planet to ours.

Given that Walter is under a certain amount of pressure, why play the poorer player just because he's older, when the better youngster is on the bench?

[RyanMac 185]

Walter is under a shitload of pressure, but look at Gabriel Rodriguez or Carlos Ischia.

In terms of fan pressure and the implication that defeat has on either River Plate or Boca Juniors respectively, they have a much harder and more pressurised job than Smith, yet both clubs' record of bringing through young talent is absolutely impeccable and on a different planet to ours.

Given that Walter is under a certain amount of pressure, why play the poorer player just because he's older, when the better youngster is on the bench?

Exactly what i was getting at, as i posted before i really think that WS wont play youngsters is because they are untested and sees it as too much of a risk.

[MaD CoW 3]

I don't think he'll be wasted. I'd like to see him be given more of a chance with more first team opportunities.

[MisterC 12,275]

I don't think he'll be wasted. I'd like to see him be given more of a chance with more first team opportunities.

bet you'd like the opportunity to have your wicked way with him MC