Quintessential British club - in an independent Scotland?

[Corky True Legend 2,682]

Why all the allegations about lies coming from the "yes" side but no mention of the lies coming from the "no" campaigners? I will state now that I was pro-independence for many years but over the last few years have become more in favour of remaining in political union with England. However, if te blatent lying by people like Darling does not stop, I will probably vote "yes". For example, as regards currency, when, as Chancellor, did he set fiscal policy for Guernsey, IoM and Jersey, all of whom use sterling as their currency? Never! Yet he says that Scotland could not retain sterling without England setting the fiscal policy. Blatent lie. As regards the EU, Were Scotland to become Independent, There would be two new political states within the "United Kingdom", as there were for 104 years. Either both would be members or neither. As my personal preference is to get out of the EU, I would hope neither but feel our best chance of getting out is as one nation. Finally, I lost all respect for Salmond when he refused to condemn the loutish behaviur shown in Edinburgh to Farage recently. Like him or not, he is the leader of a legitimate political party and thuggery ought not to play any part in British (not brutish) politics. If you don't like him, do as I do and ignore him.

Sorry about this rant but, in conclusion, I will say that it is now over 60 years since I first went to Ibrox (lifted over) and have many happy memories - not just the football but also things like the Ibrox Sports and the Govan Burgh Band. I will remain a Rangers man to my dying day, come what may.

[clan macrae 292]

It is EVERYONES democratic right to vote as they see fit. It is also your right to try to sway folk in that direction, in the same way that I have a right to vote YES and try to sway folk in that direction - that is the debate that will and should be going on in the country about the yes/no vote.

As for the name calling and bullying I have not accused you of doing so, but a quick flick through some of the posts in this thread you will see a few posters who have resorted to those tactics - 'You won't be welcome back at Ibrox.', 'More in common with the Fenians than the rangers support'; 'scumbag', 'cunt', ...and 'you're a COCK' are all comments from a single page on this thread - I have also had the vaguely threatening comment about 'educating me' but that might just be that the poster wants a robust debate on the issues and thinks he (or she) will sway me.

These quotes are more to do with education rather than affiliation.

[cushynumber 25,178]

I'll be voting no, for my own reasons.

However, rReducing the voting age to 16 I thought was laughable. That age group cant be trusted to drink (18), or drive (17, with ,moves afoot to increase that to 19), have absolutley no say in the financials and budget of most if not all households and yet are given the chance to take part in an independance vote?

I work all day, pay the mortgage, buy the cars, buy the food, pay the bills and my son goes to schol and plays his xbox/football etc without a care in the world (as it should be at 16) and yet has the same say in the countries future?

Please.

[Falcoholic 1,348]

I think I said I was in fully favour of devolved power! The more local the decision making the better.

In fact EVEN if Scotland does not get full independence we all know westminster will 'grant' more powers to the Scottish parliament (and I know there are quite a few who will vote no to full independence - who agree with doing this).

So my understanding of your standpoint is that you are for Scotland to become independent from the rest of the UK because it is right to have self determination. But it isn't alright for Shetland (or anywhere else currently in Scotland i.e Hebrides or the Borders) to be independent from Scotland and should only have devolved powers but stay part of Scotland.

That there is some real limited and restricted thinking IMO. You want Scottish Independence but not Independence in Scotland.

Cake and eating it springs to mind.

Personally I find the whole Independence subject extremely devisive. It has served to divide families, friends, work colleagues and oh look, football supporters. Whatever way the vote goes in September next year this debacle has served to ensure our wee country will be divided for a long long time afterwards.

National Separatism has never ever been a good thing. Yugoslavia anyone? Or perhaps India (Bangladesh and Pakistan)? Israel and Palestine? Or maybe even Northern Ireland?

Salmond is a megalomaniac who only cares about himself not this country or the people in it. He wants to go down in history for his own reasons. If he really gives a toss about this country why is he intent on spoiling its beautiful landscapes with monstrous wind turbines, decimating its Armed Forces and forming an ultra left wing socialist state in his own name.

It's not for me. No way. No Surrender.

[bluepeter 5,627]

I think I said I was in fully favour of devolved power! The more local the decision making the better.

In fact EVEN if Scotland does not get full independence we all know westminster will 'grant' more powers to the Scottish parliament (and I know there are quite a few who will vote no to full independence - who agree with doing this).

Fully in favour of devolved powers, which Scotland will get if not independence? You'll be voting No, then?

[SaneBear 46]

the independence argument can best be compared to the analogy of the scottish football team . . .

"great on paper, shite on grass"

salmond and his cronies have had thirty years to fine tune their arguments for independence . . . but, they can't answer any definitive questions on anything because they have no answers.

Cobbling together policies on the hoof for national security, welfare etc, etc, can't work and wont work.

It's not salmond's decision about elegibility of membership of the EU - but he says there isn't a problem

It's not salmond's decision about retaining the pound sterling as currency - but he says there isn't a problem

and so on, and so on, and so on

You can't make shite like their policies up. It's a folly, like Sir Walter Scott's vision of the noble Highland savage. Pure fiction.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

An asset - he brought the question to the table after all, but like all polititians he has his faults - but then again I aint voting for Salmond, I am voting for whether I think this country would be better off independent - my view is yes!

Yes I realise we are not voting for the man but the issues. His gaffe during the Andrew Neil interview re the Scottish position in Europe was mammoth and I believe undermined the integrity of the Yes campaign - helped of course by some Scottish Labour Lobbying and freedom of information.

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

So my understanding of your standpoint is that you are for Scotland to become independent from the rest of the UK because it is right to have self determination. But it isn't alright for Shetland (or anywhere else currently in Scotland i.e Hebrides or the Borders) to be independent from Scotland and should only have devolved powers but stay part of Scotland.

That there is some real limited and restricted thinking IMO. You want Scottish Independence but not Independence in Scotland.

Cake and eating it springs to mind.

Personally I find the whole Independence subject extremely devisive. It has served to divide families, friends, work colleagues and oh look, football supporters. Whatever way the vote goes in September next year this debacle has served to ensure our wee country will be divided for a long long time afterwards.

National Separatism has never ever been a good thing. Yugoslavia anyone? Or perhaps India (Bangladesh and Pakistan)? Israel and Palestine? Or maybe even Northern Ireland?

Salmond is a megalomaniac who only cares about himself not this country or the people in it. He wants to go down in history for his own reasons. If he really gives a toss about this country why is he intent on spoiling its beautiful landscapes with monstrous wind turbines, decimating its Armed Forces and forming an ultra left wing socialist state in his own name.

It's not for me. No way. No Surrender.

So let me sum your rant up!

You did NOT read my post correctly - you interpreted it as you thought I would respond - I am all for devolving decisions to as local as one can! But you were determined to see what you wanted to see in my post.

Your lessons on geo-political moves was just laughable!

If you think this vote is about Alex Salmond you are pretty far removed from the process.

Vote no by all means, its your right, but eevn to yourself try to justify it with some rationale that has some basis in reality!

[smell the glove 55]

The vitriol that this post has displayed, Rangers fan against Rangers fan is nothing short of disgusting.

If Scotland votes for independence it will be because a majority of the nation voted for it or should say a majority of those that could be bothered to get off their lazy arses and vote.

Rangers is a scottish football club whose early founders were protestants and supported the union. Also among them were members of the Masonic and Orange lodges. Which was fine but it does not follow that because of what went on in the past must be the standard now.

Therefore just because you support independence or don't give two tuppeny fucks about religion, doesn't mean you're not a Rangers supporter.

You are right to an extent.

However, you said that the fanbase is worldwide and many are not interested in the union.

The vast-vast majority of the fanbase is in the UK and they are interested in the union.

These are the ones that go to the games and put their money into the club since we want them to be as successful as they can be.

As I said previously, you are plainly wrong about the majority of the fanbase.

I know this from my circle of friends that do go to the games and discussions we have in pubs after the games with many other bears.

These are the ones that count; if they didnt turn up there would be no rangers as we know it (you ever see many union flags at the games at all?)

There is an annoyance amoungst many in this country at the moment that the discussion on independence has gone this far.

SNP simply got in power due to many being disinhearted by labour. Many voted this way (or stopped voting) due to little alternative.

SNP took this and ran, build us a vastly over expensive parliament building and pushed through a vote on independence.

When this move fail, like it definately will, the SNP should be held accountable for the vast sums of money and time wasted on this.

Anyway, I could'nt live in Australia, I'd miss the gers games too much.

[FernandoR20 2,133]

Solet me sum your rant up!

You diod NOT read my post correctly - you interpreted it as you thought I would respond - I am all for devolving decisions to as local as one can! But you were determined to see what you wanted to see in my post.

Your lessons on geo-political moves was just laughable!

If you think this vote is about Alex Salmond you arepretty far removed from the process.

Vote no by all means, its your right, but eevn to yourself try to justify it with some rationale that has some basis in reality!

So many typos in one post.

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

Fully in favour of devolved powers, which Scotland will get if not independence? You'll be voting No, then?

In the event of a NO majority (A YES majority will be as devolved as we can get!! ) I still know the Scottish Parliment will be given more powers.

I will still be voting yes!

[bluepeter 5,627]

In the event of a NO majority (A YES majority will be as devolved as we can get!! ) I still know the Scottish Parliment will be given more powers.

I will still be voting yes!

Would you support the people of Shetland voting for independence from an independent Scotland?

[Coop 654]

Silly question perhaps but would the Queen still be the queen of Scotland as she is now?

Would we not just be part of the commonwealth but still independant?

Bit cheeky of Salmond to host the commonwealth games, fill the bheasts pockets with the regeneration of that shitehole and then fuck off

Independace,pffff what a cheeky wee fat bastard

Biting the hand that made this country what it is today, a unionised Island that is the UK

We benefit from them like they benefit from us

I'd imagine the Union Jack would still fly high just like they fly the tri colour in support for our Jon

The Queen would still be monarch over Scotland but then, possibly at the point of her death, a debate would be had to decide whether to go on with the monarchy or not.

I think if Scotland voted for independence there'd be a sense of defiance from Rangers fans. The Union flag would still be flown even though what remained of the Union would have to make another flag, one with the Saltire removed.

This island does not compare well to the Scandinavian countries, for example, in standards of living. One of the arguments used by the SNP.

[Coop 654]

Would you support the people of Shetland voting for independence from an independent Scotland?

Would you?

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

Yes I realise we are not voting for the man but the issues. His gaffe during the Andrew Neil interview re the Scottish position in Europe was mammoth and I believe undermined the integrity of the Yes campaign - helped of course by some Scottish Labour Lobbying and freedom of information.

If we only voted for politicians that have never made a gaff, or parties who had not done complete u-turns on policy we would have no one to vote for - ever!

[smell the glove 55]

To all those on this topic that are concerned that the nationalist will win this vote:

Don't be.

They arent up in the polls, never have been and never will be in this country (the margin is too big to turn around).

He's even wanting 16-17 year olds to vote he's that far behind! (when you see this you know he's struggling)

Relax and just enjoy Salmonds desperation when he's trying to convince folk, when he knows he is behind and losing for sure

[Coop 654]

Some people appear to think voting for Independence means you're voting for the SNP. Nonsense.

In the result of a Yes victory, a general election would be held with all the parties being represented.

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

So many typos in one post.

I know - I am sightly dyslexic and a shite typer - and often have to post and re-read what I post to even spot my typos - I have corrected them for that post - I probably have edit 90% of my posts!!

Folk that can type, spell, know all the grammar rules and use them are boring bastards anyway!

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

Would you support the people of Shetland voting for independence from an independent Scotland?

Asked and answered but Ill answer it again

If they had the mechanism, and legitmacy, and desire to call a vote - then, of course, it's there democratic right (and while it has nothing to do with me- I also think the North of England should separate itself from the south - their issue would be finding the legitimate method of doing so - a North Separist Party (NSP - gettit) might be the way to go.

[FernandoR20 2,133]

I know - I am sightly dyslexic and a shite typer - and often have to post and re-read what I post to even spot my typos - I have corrected them for that post - I probably have edit 90% of my posts!!

Folk that can type, spell, know all the grammar rules and use them are boring bastards anyway!

Vote No.

[smell the glove 55]

Some people appear to think voting for Independence means you're voting for the SNP. Nonsense.

In the result of a Yes victory, a general election would be held with all the parties being represented.

I think everyone is quite clear on that!!

Its a vote for the SNP in a way that they are the only party that want it.

Labour would never have won an election in the UK ever if it wasnt for the Scottish vote and that is fact.

They want it the least.

[Tiger Shaw 30,713]

Asked and answered but Ill answer it again

If they had the mechanism, and legitmacy, and desire to call a vote - then, of course, it's there democratic right (and while it has nothing to do with me- I also think the North of England should separate itself from the south - their issue would be finding the legitimate method of doing so - a North Separist Party (NSP - gettit) might be the way to go.

Divide and conquer ... Snff sniff

[*Manticore* 1,893]

This island does not compare well to the Scandinavian countries, for example, in standards of living. One of the arguments used by the SNP.

They seem to think that independence would turn Scotland into Norway.

Used to be Ireland

They are full of bullshit and will say anything to get your vote.

[Khana Lagur 64]

I think everyone is quite clear on that!!

Its a vote for the SNP in a way that they are the only party that want it.

Labour would never have won an election in the UK ever if it wasnt for the Scottish vote and that is fact.

They want it the least.

Of course they do......self preservation, nose in the trough, terrified of losing their comfy well paid existence, they have controlled large parts of Glasgow for decades, the good people in some of these areas have been living in poverty for decades, yet they still vote these people into office, time for a change i'm starting to think to myself.

[*Manticore* 1,893]

So many typos in one post.

Bullshit as well as typos.