F$$k your coefficient

[Orangeclement 570]

5 hours ago, beararse said:

Wondered what combined Scottish Club European performances were required in order to get us up the pecking order and drop in to the final CL play off stage so had a gander at UEFAs website.

It's fucking well nigh impossible from what I can determine.

The entry level of the CL is now based on the Association's UEFA coefficient. Scotland is currently sitting in 26th place. You need to be 11th and 12th to guarantee  entry to the final play off round.

The Czech Republic and Switzerland are currently 11th and 12th. 

They have coefficients of 31.063 and 32.075 respectively. Scotland's is 18.925.

There are no points available for winning any or all of the CL qualification rounds. You get 4 points for Group Stage qualification.

So, a Scottish team would have to qualify for the CL Group stages 4 times (in a row or otherwise)

AND hope that the 11th and 12th placed associations fail to qualify at the same time

AND hope that the other associations place 13th - 25th don't boost their coefficients with a run in either competition

AND we would still have a play off to negotiate.

Points earned from the EL (which are approximately half those of the CL) also have to be accounted for so Scottish teams would need to excel in that too to stand any fucking chance.

Bottom line is, the only way a Scottish club can GUARANTEE CL Group Stage participation is by winning the Europa League (and knowing our luck UEFA would change the fucking rules if we did)

Basically, it doesn't make the slightest difference if other Scottish teams get beat so fuck them all. 

EDIT: it's VERY complicated. Someone has just pointed out that the Scottish teams point tally is divided by the number of  teams representing their league. So, if we earn say 16 points as a collective, its divided by 4 (i think thats right). Its all relative, regardless of how its calculated. It is a nations collective performance v's other nations so we still have to better the 13 nations above us to get a sniff of a play off for the Champs League Group stage.  

I managed it on FM in 1st year so Stevie G should have no problems.

?

[Brubear 2,927]

1 hour ago, beararse said:

Not trying to be a dick, i'm just genuinely interested in what effort is actually required by Scottish Football to get us up the coefficient table.

So, Greece are currently 15th and the first team to be allowed 2 teams in the CL qualifiers. They have a score of 28.600. Scores are based on the last 5 years performance so they have averaged 5.72 per year.

Scotland have averaged 3.725 per year these past 5 years (which is probably a reflection on where we have been as a club) and currently have a coefficient of 18.625

In order for Scotland to have a chance at getting 2 teams in the Champions League we need to improve our yearly average by a minimum of just under 2 (1.995 to be exact).

The coefficient is the points tally of all Scottish clubs divided by the number of clubs. For example, a coefficient of 3.75 means the Scottish Football Association have scored on average of 15 points (ie 3.75x4) year on year.

Scottish football needs to attain a coefficient average in excess of 7.715 per year for 5 consecutive years in order to overtake Greece, or whoever may be there at that time (ie their score 28.6000 minus ours 18.625 then divide by 5 and add whats left onto their average). I have assumed that the required coefficient to achieve 15th wont change over the period.

In order to achieve this turnaround the following is the bare minimum that would need to be achieved EVERY single year for 5 years :

SPL Champion - Reach CL group stages (4 points) 1 Win (2 points) 1 draw (1 point) = 7 points (there are no points for CL qualification rounds as you drop to the Europa League when knocked, unless its the play off stage)

SPL Runner Up - Reach EL group stages (7.5 points) + 1 win(2 points) + 1 draw (1 point) + qualify for knock out stage (3 bonus points) = 13.5 points

SPL 3rd Place - Reach EL play off elimination (7.5 points)

SPL 4th Place - Reach second qualifying round elimination (3 points)

Total Points gained in single campaign = 33

UEFA Association Coefficient = 33 divided by No. of Scottish teams = 7.75.

Obviously there are various permutations as to how 7.75 can be achieved but it gives a flavour of where we are.

Bottom line, it is very unlikely we will ever have two teams in the Champions League let alone be in the position of having to negotiate only one play off round.

....

Fuck, i wish the kids would go back to school and i can get back to work ? 

 

I follow most of that apart from why Scotland needs and average of 7.75 per year which as a total over a rolling 5 years would be 38.75 when Greece are 15th on 28.6 points and you are assuming the target to obtain 15th doesn't change. Surely we need to get an average of 5.72 per year the same as Greece which with 4 clubs contributing is a total of 22.9 per year not 33. 

It is not as daunting a challenge as you were calculating which is why Scotland were 10th at one time. Based on results so far this year we have moved from 26th to 23rd, although I accept this could go up or down yet depending on how ourselves, Hibs and celtic do versus the other countries around us in the rankings from now on in.  

 

 

 

[GovanFrontSince96 315]

I think the system is fair, if Scottish teams start doing well in Europe winning games regularly then we will quickly move up the rankings.

Even though Septic fans were greeting about 4 qualifiers to reach the CL group stages, I think they’ve realised if they had beaten a poor AEK side then they would have videoton in the last qualifier in order to reach the goldmine of the group stages, not a huge hurdle in fairness. 

Same with us, if we can’t take care of Maribor then we don’t deserve to be playing the likes of Arsenal or Chelsea in the groups.

[Corky True Legend 2,682]

I hear that they are also blaming Hibs for damaging Scotland's coefficient by not selling McGinn to them. Aye, everone has to bow down and help the all conquering C****c. Cunts.

[beararse 6,386]

10 minutes ago, Brubear said:

I follow most of that apart from why Scotland needs and average of 7.75 per year which as a total over a rolling 5 years would be 38.75 when Greece are 15th on 28.6 points and you are assuming the target to obtain 15th doesn't change. Surely we need to get an average of 5.72 per year the same as Greece which with 4 clubs contributing is a total of 22.9 per year not 33. 

It is not as daunting a challenge as you were calculating which is why Scotland were 10th at one time. Based on results so far this year we have moved from 26th to 23rd, although I accept this could go up or down yet depending on how ourselves, Hibs and celtic do versus the other countries around us in the rankings from now on in.  

Well spotted.

I was convinced I hadn't fucked but i've checked and i have ? partly because i forgot it was compounded figures year on year so we gain on 15th annually (and partly because i'm a total fanny)

It would therefore take 3 years if we scored a combined 33 points and not 5....but that still relies on the teams achieving the same level of success i mentioned earlier.

I very much doubt we'd get more than 1 team managing that success, let alone the 4 of them.

I'm still referring to 33 points as we'd probably need a higher score than the 28.6 as UEFA have changed the scoring system slightly, and it appears there are more points available in the EL compared to previously (you used to earn 5.25 points by reaching the EL group stages. You will now earn 10, assuming you entered the competition at the first qualifying round). Champions League points remain unchanged for the Group stages but you no longer score points in the qualifying rounds

I'm guessing UEFA thought this would make it more interesting for the nations and teams outwith the top 10 countries.

Still want the Tims to get pumped in Europe.

[gogzy 31,195]

10 hours ago, eejay the dj said:

I wonder if the same high IQ hypocrites from yesterday  will be in on this thread today

You have a brass neck on you talking about other peoples IQ after the shite you spouted in the other coefficient thread.

[gogzy 31,195]

Their coefficient is also our coefficient.  Some people on here are fucking nuts.

 

We all benefit from a good coefficient.  We are simply not going to win the league ever single year, so the cushion of another CL place would be excellent.

 

Some people have shown they are more than willing to cut off their nose to spite their face.  Lunacy.

[gogzy 31,195]

6 hours ago, beararse said:

Wondered what combined Scottish Club European performances were required in order to get us up the pecking order and drop in to the final CL play off stage so had a gander at UEFAs website.

It's fucking well nigh impossible from what I can determine.

The entry level of the CL is now based on the Association's UEFA coefficient. Scotland is currently sitting in 26th place. You need to be 11th and 12th to guarantee  entry to the final play off round.

The Czech Republic and Switzerland are currently 11th and 12th. 

They have coefficients of 31.063 and 32.075 respectively. Scotland's is 18.925.

There are no points available for winning any or all of the CL qualification rounds. You get 4 points for Group Stage qualification.

So, a Scottish team would have to qualify for the CL Group stages 4 times (in a row or otherwise)

AND hope that the 11th and 12th placed associations fail to qualify at the same time

AND hope that the other associations place 13th - 25th don't boost their coefficients with a run in either competition

AND we would still have a play off to negotiate.

Points earned from the EL (which are approximately half those of the CL) also have to be accounted for so Scottish teams would need to excel in that too to stand any fucking chance.

Bottom line is, the only way a Scottish club can GUARANTEE CL Group Stage participation is by winning the Europa League (and knowing our luck UEFA would change the fucking rules if we did)

Basically, it doesn't make the slightest difference if other Scottish teams get beat so fuck them all. 

EDIT: it's VERY complicated. Someone has just pointed out that the Scottish teams point tally is divided by the number of  teams representing their league. So, if we earn say 16 points as a collective, its divided by 4 (i think thats right). Its all relative, regardless of how its calculated. It is a nations collective performance v's other nations so we still have to better the 13 nations above us to get a sniff of a play off for the Champs League Group stage.  

It's not even close to impossible.

We ( collectively) are roughly 1 win and one draw each over a 5 year period to climb to 15th.  That gives us 2 CL spots.

[Brubear 2,927]

1 minute ago, beararse said:

Well spotted.

I was convinced I hadn't fucked but i've checked and i have ? partly because i forgot it was compounded figures year on year so we gain on 15th annually (and partly because i'm a total fanny)

It would therefore take 3 years if we scored a combined 33 points and not 5....but that still relies on the teams achieving the same level of success i mentioned earlier.

I very much doubt we'd get more than 1 team managing that success, let alone the 4 of them.

I'm still referring to 33 points as we'd probably need a higher score than the 28.6 as UEFA have changed the scoring system slightly, and it appears there are more points available in the EL compared to previously (you used to earn 5.25 points by reaching the EL group stages. You will now earn 10, assuming you entered the competition at the first qualifying round). Champions League points remain unchanged for the Group stages but you no longer score points in the qualifying rounds

I'm guessing UEFA thought this would make it more interesting for the nations and teams outwith the top 10 countries.

Still want the Tims to get pumped in Europe.

I did a quick calculation and if all 3 teams still in Europe got into EL Groups and won a couple of games and a draw, even if none got to the knockout stage we would get around 33 points plus the .5 Aberdeen got divided by 4 gives us 8.375 for this year and 3.25 drops off from 13/14 we go from 18.625 to 23.75 by next year which puts us 18th, assuming everyone else stays at similar level. That doesn't make too much difference just less qualifiers, but if you do that 2 years we could be up to 13th or 14th after 2 years. It then becomes harder to keep improving but one of the advantage of the past 5 years being so crap each year a bad score drops off and we should be able to bring a better score in for the current year. I share your view on the tarriers but a great scenario would be for us both to be in the Groups as they would need to play Thurs/Sun like us but us making the knockout and them not. 

[cushynumber 25,178]

Devils advocate - is going in at the 1st qualifying round a bad thing if you prepare properly for it? you then have a good few games under your belt before the 3rd qualifying round and should be better prepared. Also, you get gate receipts for supposedly easy ties. 

Imagine going straight to the 3rd qualifier or the play off, with only preseason friendlies and maybe a single league game under your belt - doesnt it make it harder to then get the win as you are less sharp/fit?

[Brubear 2,927]

1 minute ago, cushynumber said:

Devils advocate - is going in at the 1st qualifying round a bad thing if you prepare properly for it? you then have a good few games under your belt before the 3rd qualifying round and should be better prepared. Also, you get gate receipts for supposedly easy ties. 

Imagine going straight to the 3rd qualifier or the play off, with only preseason friendlies and maybe a single league game under your belt - doesnt it make it harder to then get the win as you are less sharp/fit?

It is a good point, I guess the players would rather have an extra couple of weeks with their families in the close season so from their point of view it makes a difference. You are right though if our first competitive game had been Maribor would we be going over there with a 2 goal lead. 

[beararse 6,386]

26 minutes ago, Brubear said:

I did a quick calculation and if all 3 teams still in Europe got into EL Groups and won a couple of games and a draw, even if none got to the knockout stage we would get around 33 points plus the .5 Aberdeen got divided by 4 gives us 8.375 for this year and 3.25 drops off from 13/14 we go from 18.625 to 23.75 by next year which puts us 18th, assuming everyone else stays at similar level. That doesn't make too much difference just less qualifiers, but if you do that 2 years we could be up to 13th or 14th after 2 years. It then becomes harder to keep improving but one of the advantage of the past 5 years being so crap each year a bad score drops off and we should be able to bring a better score in for the current year. I share your view on the tarriers but a great scenario would be for us both to be in the Groups as they would need to play Thurs/Sun like us but us making the knockout and them not. 

Now that I’ve revisited my figures it doesn’t seem impossible.

But I do  think it is improbable that Rangers, celtic AND Hibs will qualify for the group stages and score 8.375.

Only 4 annnual scores out of 85 (ie  the scores for all five years for countries placed between 10th and 26th) have bettered 8.375.

 

[beararse 6,386]

5 minutes ago, cushynumber said:

Devils advocate - is going in at the 1st qualifying round a bad thing if you prepare properly for it? you then have a good few games under your belt before the 3rd qualifying round and should be better prepared. Also, you get gate receipts for supposedly easy ties. 

Imagine going straight to the 3rd qualifier or the play off, with only preseason friendlies and maybe a single league game under your belt - doesnt it make it harder to then get the win as you are less sharp/fit?

I actually think the early Euro games are great for this club.

Gets us focused, organised and fit well before the start of the season.

The first two league games are evidence of that.

[Brubear 2,927]

2 minutes ago, beararse said:

Now that I’ve revisited my figures it doesn’t seem impossible.

But I do  think it is improbable that Rangers, celtic AND Hibs will qualify for the group stages and score 8.375.

Only 4 annnual scores out of 85 (ie  the scores for all five years for countries place between 10th and 26th) have bettered 8.375.

 

Tend to agree, was thinking that as UEFA appear to have increased points attainable in EL then this type of score is easier than before, but of course will result in every country improving their score. 

[cushynumber 25,178]

Us and cellic getting into the group stages would be a start. Then we look to build on that.

But honestly, if its a choice between watching them getting fucked out of Europe or the coefficient - I'll take watching them getting fucked out of Europe every time. I dont recall anybody in Scotland being bothered with the coefficient when they voted us out, though I do remember us getting the blame in the press BECAUSE we couldn't qualify for Europe - and therefore the coefficient was somehow our fault

Sorry  @gogzy

[RFCRobertson 11,789]

28 minutes ago, cushynumber said:

Devils advocate - is going in at the 1st qualifying round a bad thing if you prepare properly for it? you then have a good few games under your belt before the 3rd qualifying round and should be better prepared. Also, you get gate receipts for supposedly easy ties. 

Imagine going straight to the 3rd qualifier or the play off, with only preseason friendlies and maybe a single league game under your belt - doesnt it make it harder to then get the win as you are less sharp/fit?

I think the europa games have been a godsend for us this season, gave the team a chance to gel and Gerrard to get his tactics right. I mean, it's still European games and it's more games to enjoy the queens 11

[FSM 20,892]

19 minutes ago, cushynumber said:

Us and cellic getting into the group stages would be a start. Then we look to build on that.

But honestly, if its a choice between watching them getting fucked out of Europe or the coefficient - I'll take watching them getting fucked out of Europe every time. I dont recall anybody in Scotland being bothered with the coefficient when they voted us out, though I do remember us getting the blame in the press BECAUSE we couldn't qualify for Europe - and therefore the coefficient was somehow our fault

Sorry  @gogzy

Just when you think you know someone.....

[eejay the dj 31,964]

51 minutes ago, gogzy said:

You have a brass neck on you talking about other peoples IQ after the shite you spouted in the other coefficient thread.

If you read all the thread , it was someone having a go at my IQ however low that is, that merited my reply .

Plenty of people agreed with my shite Gogzy  lad

[FSM 20,892]

Just now, eejay the dj said:

Plenty of people agreed with my shite Gogzy my lad

Yes they did, other morons.

Like the saying goes, never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

[eejay the dj 31,964]

1 minute ago, FSM said:

Yes they did, other morons.

Like the saying goes, never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Stop being an arrogant moron then

[To Be A Ranger 4,032]

1 hour ago, Corky True Legend said:

I hear that they are also blaming Hibs for damaging Scotland's coefficient by not selling McGinn to them. Aye, everone has to bow down and help the all conquering C****c. Cunts.

I'm bored with all this McGinn shit, but at the same time lovin their excuses. When did this player suddenly become the man to win games at the highest level. It's like he's Ronaldo or something. He's so good they refused to meet Hibs price ffs. Wouldn't he have been cup-tied for last night's game anyway as he probably played in the europa qualifiers.

[beararse 6,386]

1 hour ago, GovanFrontSince96 said:

I think the system is fair, if Scottish teams start doing well in Europe winning games regularly then we will quickly move up the rankings.

Even though Septic fans were greeting about 4 qualifiers to reach the CL group stages, I think they’ve realised if they had beaten a poor AEK side then they would have videoton in the last qualifier in order to reach the goldmine of the group stages, not a huge hurdle in fairness. 

Same with us, if we can’t take care of Maribor then we don’t deserve to be playing the likes of Arsenal or Chelsea in the groups.

Having spent most of my day getting to grips with how it all works it does seem reasonably fair (if you set aside the issue of the top legues getting 3-4 teams in the CL).

I just cant see how we can move up the coefficient table at a decent pace. I reckon its 6-8 years minimum before we get back to 2 teams in the Champions League, if that happens at all.

[RFC55 109,163]

2 minutes ago, Rangers_no1 said:

When you look at Zenit and Feyenoord both getting humped 4-0 last Thursday, would say you have a very valid point. Although Athens beat the scum without those qualifying matches beforehand.

Tbf, feyenoord had a previous round before their scudding. I'd honestly rather play one round and take my chance in that.

I went on and on last year and prior to this year starting about just how tough this EL qualification is and the huge list of "shocks" in the last few years. This qualification process is a fucking lottery. Doesn't matter if you draw Luxembourgs 4th best side or besiktas. Its an absolute bastard.

Let's be honest mate we sit here just now with a great chance to play a one off qualifier for the right to be in the group stage but we've fortunately avoided olympiakos, atalanta etc. It really is tough 

[RFC55 109,163]

Just now, Rangers_no1 said:

That was Feyenoords first tie this year mate.

We've been fortunate with draws without doubt but still did well so far against two decent teams.

Aww fuck apologies. So it was. They were a seed in our draw 

[glasgow argyle 1,093]

4 hours ago, beararse said:

Not trying to be a dick, i'm just genuinely interested in what effort is actually required by Scottish Football to get us up the coefficient table.

So, Greece are currently 15th and the first team to be allowed 2 teams in the CL qualifiers. They have a score of 28.600. Scores are based on the last 5 years performance so they have averaged 5.72 per year.

Scotland have averaged 3.725 per year these past 5 years (which is probably a reflection on where we have been as a club) and currently have a coefficient of 18.625

In order for Scotland to have a chance at getting 2 teams in the Champions League we need to improve our yearly average by a minimum of just under 2 (1.995 to be exact).

The coefficient is the points tally of all Scottish clubs divided by the number of clubs. For example, a coefficient of 3.75 means the Scottish Football Association have scored on average of 15 points (ie 3.75x4) year on year.

Scottish football needs to attain a coefficient average in excess of 7.715 per year for 5 consecutive years in order to overtake Greece, or whoever may be there at that time (ie their score 28.6000 minus ours 18.625 then divide by 5 and add whats left onto their average). I have assumed that the required coefficient to achieve 15th wont change over the period.

In order to achieve this turnaround the following is the bare minimum that would need to be achieved EVERY single year for 5 years :

SPL Champion - Reach CL group stages (4 points) 1 Win (2 points) 1 draw (1 point) = 7 points (there are no points for CL qualification rounds as you drop to the Europa League when knocked, unless its the play off stage)

SPL Runner Up - Reach EL group stages (7.5 points) + 1 win(2 points) + 1 draw (1 point) + qualify for knock out stage (3 bonus points) = 13.5 points

SPL 3rd Place - Reach EL play off elimination (7.5 points)

SPL 4th Place - Reach second qualifying round elimination (3 points)

Total Points gained in single campaign = 33

UEFA Association Coefficient = 33 divided by No. of Scottish teams = 7.75.

Obviously there are various permutations as to how 7.75 can be achieved but it gives a flavour of where we are.

Bottom line, it is very unlikely we will ever have two teams in the Champions League let alone be in the position of having to negotiate only one play off round.

....

Fuck, i wish the kids would go back to school and i can get back to work ? 

 

I wish Carol Vorderman could come on here and explain this. My head is scrambled.