Sun running a story about racist chants on a supporters bus upto Dingwall

[King Jela 20,361]

Michael Stewart starting the "its the club and support' narrative never once questioning the scum renewing Super Leigh the racists contract or the abuse Bitton took for being Jewish but when its a few fannies on a bus its 'the club and support'. The agenda is clear. 

[The Dude 20,026]

Just now, mitre_mouldmaster said:

1.

It is literally what you have been arguing about.

The post you quoted me on to start our debate I actually clearly state the 'what they did on the bus was racist' and then went on to explain in depth why there are levels to this and it is not a binary matter.

I then specifically asked you if you believe there are scales to the matter where one should be considered worse than the other. You confirmed by saying "Not particularly no. A racist is a racist."

You have now completely switched track.

2.

Yes. I would not post on a forum where people openly racially abuse black people by calling them the 'monkeys' and it is deemed acceptable to the moderators for them to do so. If you would, I would seriously call into question your judgement. On this forum, people openly have called Lawell a 'Fat Jap'. Given (correct me if im wrong) that you believe this is racist and therefor no different than calling Kamara a monkey, you are happy to converse with people who you believe to be just as bad.

Yes, @Blue Avenger was banned for racist posts. You have stated that there is no difference between calling 'Kamara a monkey' and racist abuse like the Celtic player endured. So you also must accept that there is no difference between @Blue Avenger offence to that done by posters who use racist terms like 'Jap'.

Given this, which do you think should be done?

1. Do you believe @Blue Avenger should be reinstated?

2. Do you believe that people should be banned for in the past using a racial slur when talking about Lawell?

It has to be one or the other.

 

Again, I have literally no idea what Blue Avenger was banned for so can't comment. If he was banned for using racist language then he was rightly banned. If other posters haven't been banned for using racist language, that's up to the mods and admin. It doesn't mean others should be given carte blanche to be racist.

If I wasn't to use any platform where people are/could be racist, I'd never leave my house. An utterly ridiculous notion that you'd expect some posters not to use a forum on the basis others have been racist on there.

[mclovin9091 1,388]

Problem: A wee daftie recorded it and shared it online. (Should know better nowadays that everything is recorded, moneys on the bus also having a camera)

 

Solution: When on the bus, no phone is allowed out of your pocket for the duration of the journey.

 

Is it right to sign certain songs, do certain actions. No clearly not however crowd mentality takes over. Take the guy thats stepped down from the committe, he may have thought he was king dick/showing off to the younger members/carrying on traditions, however misguided he may have been wanting to set the example and have the lads on the bus have a good day out.

 

Crowd mentality has eventually won out on signing Billy boys. 

[mitre_mouldmaster 21,509]

6 minutes ago, Bad Robot said:

I also don’t know or can’t remember the actual words which BA had used but all is wrong and your second option is always going to get some leeway particularly on a Rangers related forum where there is a degree of moderation. Dive over to their forums and I’ll sure you’ll find plenty of PUL abuse but again all these hypocrites will be banging on about the big bad Rangers and these idiots on the bus. 

His words should not matter. It was racist.

It matters for my stance as I say that there are levels and things have to be judged on a case by case basis.

This is not the argument of you and @The Dude though. You guys are proclaiming 'Racist is racist' and that there is no scale to things.

Your stance means that you also cant agree with the stance of the forum allowing leeway. If you believe racism to be a purely black and white (pun intended) matter then you must be as offended when you see someone being called the 'n' word to someone using a term such as 'jap'.

[gj923 1,457]

1 hour ago, Blueshoff said:

David Walliams is ok when he dresses up as Ting Ting though 

 

The difference between banter and racism is a constantly moving goalpost.

I doubt you can say anything about anyone that couldn't be construed as offensive to someone - especially if they are trying to point score.  I think we all have a right to be offensive (to a degree) but not right to discriminate - there is a world of difference.  People try to muddy the waters when you are being offensive to someone of a different race.  It's ok for one of them to call Forrest the No Neck Monster but not ok to mention the appearance of another player's eyes.

It's a minefield.    

The little Britain creators have said that you could never make a program like that now

I still find that whole sketch so funny

[The Dude 20,026]

1 minute ago, mitre_mouldmaster said:

His words should not matter. It was racist.

It matters for my stance as I say that there are levels and things have to be judged on a case by case basis.

This is not the argument of you and @The Dude though. You guys are proclaiming 'Racist is racist' and that there is no scale to things.

Your stance means that you also cant agree with the stance of the forum allowing leeway. If you believe racism to be a purely black and white (pun intended) matter then you must be as offended when you see someone being called the 'n' word to someone using a term such as 'jap'.

Why would we need to be 'offended' by it? I can think someone has said something racist without taking personal offence to it. I'm no more offended by someone on here using racist language as I was when I seen a boy I went to school with was jailed last week for being  "An anti-semitic homophobic sectarian disablist thug"

[mitre_mouldmaster 21,509]

1 minute ago, The Dude said:

Again, I have literally no idea what Blue Avenger was banned for so can't comment. If he was banned for using racist language then he was rightly banned. If other posters haven't been banned for using racist language, that's up to the mods and admin. It doesn't mean others should be given carte blanche to be racist.

If I wasn't to use any platform where people are/could be racist, I'd never leave my house. An utterly ridiculous notion that you'd expect some posters not to use a forum on the basis others have been racist on there.

People can be racist on any platform, but if the moderators openly allow them to continue with the most grievous racist abuse unpunished, then I would move to a different platform.

Are you saying you would happily stay and converse with people on this forum if the moderators decided to actively allow the most grievous racist language to be used. You would be happy staying here and talking with people who called players the 'n' word.

[Bad Robot 21,150]

7 minutes ago, King Jela said:

Michael Stewart starting the "its the club and support' narrative never once questioning the scum renewing Super Leigh the racists contract or the abuse Bitton took for being Jewish but when its a few fannies on a bus its 'the club and support'. The agenda is clear. 

and some of us play right into their hands 

[Bad Robot 21,150]

7 minutes ago, mitre_mouldmaster said:

His words should not matter. It was racist.

It matters for my stance as I say that there are levels and things have to be judged on a case by case basis.

This is not the argument of you and @The Dude though. You guys are proclaiming 'Racist is racist' and that there is no scale to things.

Your stance means that you also cant agree with the stance of the forum allowing leeway. If you believe racism to be a purely black and white (pun intended) matter then you must be as offended when you see someone being called the 'n' word to someone using a term such as 'jap'.

Over the years my opinion on here has been consistent in that verbal abuse is verbal abuse. I also don’t agree with the censorship of words especially in writings and context but it seems only one word in the history of literature has been banned which again is wrong on my opinion.

[SkylineBlue 23,351]

17 minutes ago, Bad Robot said:

We should go on the PR front then and get the guys to the club for some re-education, even bring the celtic player to meet them for a personal apology. 

Restorative justice I believe its called. I think that can be more powerful than any criminal record for some people and doesn't limit their future. 

[Bad Robot 21,150]

33 minutes ago, mitre_mouldmaster said:

His words should not matter. It was racist.

It matters for my stance as I say that there are levels and things have to be judged on a case by case basis.

This is not the argument of you and @The Dude though. You guys are proclaiming 'Racist is racist' and that there is no scale to things.

Your stance means that you also cant agree with the stance of the forum allowing leeway. If you believe racism to be a purely black and white (pun intended) matter then you must be as offended when you see someone being called the 'n' word to someone using a term such as 'jap'.

I’m actually more offended about the double standards which Rangers and the PUL community are seen in compared to others which in itself is discriminatory.
 

Over the last week a lot of online media have stories about the parades starting back up but go into ‘unmoderated’ comments of these articles and you will see who the real bigots are but they aren’t roundly condemned as it’s open season on us and it doesn’t suit the popular agenda which is being pushed by all and sundry and all originating by our sitting governments politicians and councillors.

[Bad Robot 21,150]

5 minutes ago, SkylineBlue said:

Restorative justice I believe its called. I think that can be more powerful than any criminal record for some people and doesn't limit their future. 

and that’s the road I hope their employers go down 

[SkylineBlue 23,351]

Just now, Bad Robot said:

and that’s the road I hope their employers go down 

That's not really up to their employers. They could maybe put them on mandatory training course rather than sack them, which is probably more proportionate, but unlikely.

[graeme_4 34,520]

22 minutes ago, King Jela said:

Michael Stewart starting the "its the club and support' narrative never once questioning the scum renewing Super Leigh the racists contract or the abuse Bitton took for being Jewish but when its a few fannies on a bus its 'the club and support'. The agenda is clear. 

We give him an open goal, let’s be honest. 

[The Dude 20,026]

12 minutes ago, mitre_mouldmaster said:

People can be racist on any platform, but if the moderators openly allow them to continue with the most grievous racist abuse unpunished, then I would move to a different platform.

Are you saying you would happily stay and converse with people on this forum if the moderators decided to actively allow the most grievous racist language to be used. You would be happy staying here and talking with people who called players the 'n' word.

I'd not actively choose to move to a different platform unless the existing one saw racism became the norm from posters and was allowed to go unchecked. I'd no more quit here because posters were racist than I would stop supporting Rangers because some fans are racist.

I've made my feeling known about the use of stuff like 'fenian' on here in the past. No matter where you discuss Rangers, there's always going to be some who use sectarian terms. Same goes the other way with Celtic fans and stuff like 'hun' and 'orange bastard'. If posters on here were abusing players based on their skin colour, I can't imagine I'd be sitting happily conversing with them but would likely be calling them a racist arsehole.

[Monkey Butler 23,020]

I wonder if Furuhashi actually cares about any of this as much as we seem to. 

Imagining myself moving to Japan and footage appears of Japanese youths on a bus singing about how I like to eat deep fried Mars Bars and then doing round eye impressions of me. Not sure I'd be that bothered tbh. 

[the blue plumber 744]

43 minutes ago, The Dude said:

One of them has apparently quit the committee of the bus he was on:

"Just want to apologise to every member of the bus not acceptable behaviour.

"I've stepped down from the committee and won't be back on the bus.

"Club deserve so much better and I wish bus nothing but success. Again I'm sorry."

He has stepped down.

[mitre_mouldmaster 21,509]

5 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Why would we need to be 'offended' by it? I can think someone has said something racist without taking personal offence to it. I'm no more offended by someone on here using racist language as I was when I seen a boy I went to school with was jailed last week for being  "An anti-semitic homophobic sectarian disablist thug"

My point above expands on this.

Answer these 2 simple questions.

1. Do you agree with posters being banned for using the 'n' word to insult players?

2. Do you agree that posters should be banned for having called Lawell a 'fat jap'?

I think that calling a black player (or any person) the 'n' word is off the scale offensive! They are rightfully banned, there can be no debate about it.

I think that people using the 'jap' term, although it is racially offensive, it is not the same level of offense, so should be given extra leeway. I would be happy with the forum updating the rules on this and giving people a chance to adjust their language. I would fully disagree with the mods going through post history and banning people for using it in the past. I would not feel the same if a post from years ago was found where someone used the 'n' word as an insult. I would want them banned in retrospect.

If you think the two things are as offensive as each other, and that there is no grey area on this scale, then I think you are being far too over simplistic.

I have even tempered my own language over the last few months. It was rightfully highlighted that I was using terms which could be offensive to people with learning disabilities. On reflection, I should not have been using them and have stopped. I was wrong.

Treating things as black and white with no area to discuss and reflect is counter productive. It puts people on the defensive, you cannot create widespread change overnight.

Ill still probably call my mates in real life insulting terms in a joking manner, and I hope to god they dont recorded and put on social media.

What the guys did and said on the bus was racist, it was stupid and playing up to the crowd. They made a mistake and are probably going to end up paying a huge price for it.

The story does not deserve the media attention it is getting. The fact that it is racially offensive is a by product here. The fact that it involves Rangers and Celtic is the only reason it is getting attention.

Fuck sake, half of Scotland spent the summer singing a shite disco song because Consadine from Aberdeen got caught on film singing a song while dressed up in a way which was probably massively offensive to trans folk.

 

[mitre_mouldmaster 21,509]

4 minutes ago, The Dude said:

I'd not actively choose to move to a different platform unless the existing one saw racism became the norm from posters and was allowed to go unchecked. I'd no more quit here because posters were racist than I would stop supporting Rangers because some fans are racist.

I've made my feeling known about the use of stuff like 'fenian' on here in the past. No matter where you discuss Rangers, there's always going to be some who use sectarian terms. Same goes the other way with Celtic fans and stuff like 'hun' and 'orange bastard'. If posters on here were abusing players based on their skin colour, I can't imagine I'd be sitting happily conversing with them but would likely be calling them a racist arsehole.

But this is exactly what you have done....

On this forum, people have been calling Lawell the 'Fat Jap' for years and have gone unchecked.

Your stance here has been that this is no different than calling Kamara a monkey.

This is my point. You are not even acknowledging that the racism has been allowed to go unchecked because regardless of your words on this thread, you dont actually see the racism that you are condemning in front of your eyes.

You are arguing a point in black and white, whilst actually practicing in the grey.

[plumbGER 24,518]

It was just peer pressure, first away day for the lads since the terrible pandemic.

Doesn't make it right but doesn't mean they should be stoned to death either.

[KeyserSoze 14,532]

18 hours ago, bluenoz said:

I can't fathom why someone would post that on social media. Moronic idiot whoever did that.

Personally, I wouldn't sing that but what goes on in the bus, stays on the bus. That has always been the rule.

So you would be happy to hear racist chants on your bus knowing it’s a big secret with you all? 
 

Try pulling up the cunts singing it and remind them about what our fucking players have had to put up with. 
 

ffs

[The Dude 20,026]

Just now, mitre_mouldmaster said:

But this is exactly what you have done....

On this forum, people have been calling Lawell the 'Fat Jap' for years and have gone unchecked.

Your stance here has been that this is no different than calling Kamara a monkey.

This is my point. You are not even acknowledging that the racism has been allowed to go unchecked because regardless of your words on this thread, you dont actually see the racism that you are condemning in front of your eyes.

You are arguing a point in black and white, whilst actually practicing in the grey.

I'm not a mod on here. I think the 'fat jap' term is nonsense and if admin were to ban folk for it, then that's up to them. I personally think it is certainly verging on racist and isn't a term I've ever used. Unfortunately though, I'm not a mod/admin so there's not a whole lot I can do about it on here. I can only be held against the comments made by me. What anyone else on here posts is on them.

There absolutely has been racist comments on here that have been allowed to go unchecked, however they are very much in the minority and I think the worst of it is dealt with by the mods/admin.

 

[The Dude 20,026]

13 minutes ago, mitre_mouldmaster said:

My point above expands on this.

Answer these 2 simple questions.

1. Do you agree with posters being banned for using the 'n' word to insult players?

2. Do you agree that posters should be banned for having called Lawell a 'fat jap'?

I think that calling a black player (or any person) the 'n' word is off the scale offensive! They are rightfully banned, there can be no debate about it.

I think that people using the 'jap' term, although it is racially offensive, it is not the same level of offense, so should be given extra leeway. I would be happy with the forum updating the rules on this and giving people a chance to adjust their language. I would fully disagree with the mods going through post history and banning people for using it in the past. I would not feel the same if a post from years ago was found where someone used the 'n' word as an insult. I would want them banned in retrospect.

If you think the two things are as offensive as each other, and that there is no grey area on this scale, then I think you are being far too over simplistic.

I have even tempered my own language over the last few months. It was rightfully highlighted that I was using terms which could be offensive to people with learning disabilities. On reflection, I should not have been using them and have stopped. I was wrong.

Treating things as black and white with no area to discuss and reflect is counter productive. It puts people on the defensive, you cannot create widespread change overnight.

Ill still probably call my mates in real life insulting terms in a joking manner, and I hope to god they dont recorded and put on social media.

What the guys did and said on the bus was racist, it was stupid and playing up to the crowd. They made a mistake and are probably going to end up paying a huge price for it.

The story does not deserve the media attention it is getting. The fact that it is racially offensive is a by product here. The fact that it involves Rangers and Celtic is the only reason it is getting attention.

Fuck sake, half of Scotland spent the summer singing a shite disco song because Consadine from Aberdeen got caught on film singing a song while dressed up in a way which was probably massively offensive to trans folk.

 

1. Yes.

2. Yes.

If people are on the defensive for saying or doing something that has been considered racist for a long time that's their own fault.

[Prso's headband 35,446]

11 hours ago, SonicWill said:

What the fuck even is half this thread?

A section of our own support have racially abused a player and in doing so tarnished the name of the club.

They've done it at a time when the club is running a high-profile campaign to promote equality, tolerance and inclusivity.

They've done it six months after one of our own was subjected to racial abuse by an opponent.

Instead of immediately condemning the idiots on the bus, a sizeable number of people here seem more upset that "the sanctity of the bus" is being violated. I'm sorry that it's not the 80s anymore and you can't just sling around whatever slurs and insults you want, but if this is what goes on on your bus then it doesn't need protected, it needs a giant fucking spotlight shone on it.

Get these fans banned and give tickets to people who won't shame the 

[Rowley Birkin 8,657]

so what the fuck do we now call the hole we pee/shoot out of?