Is Clement getting an easy ride?

[theiconicman 3,121]

I think Clement has lost a large part of the dressing room. The players seemed to have a lot of power given the length of time they'd been together and the number of managers they'd seen out the door.

Perhaps they didn't like the clear out. Perhaps they don't like his manner. Perhaps they don't like his tactics.

Whatever it is, I don't think they are giving it all for him. And I say that as someone who is critical of Clement.

[GA1972 10,308]

1 hour ago, theiconicman said:

I think Clement has lost a large part of the dressing room. The players seemed to have a lot of power given the length of time they'd been together and the number of managers they'd seen out the door.

Perhaps they didn't like the clear out. Perhaps they don't like his manner. Perhaps they don't like his tactics.

Whatever it is, I don't think they are giving it all for him. And I say that as someone who is critical of Clement.

More than likely, he talks some amount of shite in interviews, god only knows what fucking nonsense he’s spouting to the players behind closed doors. 

[BlueKnight87 17,851]

9 hours ago, theiconicman said:

I think Clement has lost a large part of the dressing room. The players seemed to have a lot of power given the length of time they'd been together and the number of managers they'd seen out the door.

Perhaps they didn't like the clear out. Perhaps they don't like his manner. Perhaps they don't like his tactics.

Whatever it is, I don't think they are giving it all for him. And I say that as someone who is critical of Clement.

I agree but it doesn't take a lot for a manager to lose this dressing room from history. 

The next few games will be big for Clement. We'll need to see a reaction from him and these players. 

[BlueSuedeSambas 56,359]

Don’t think people can really talk about how many managers this dressing room has seen off now. With the exception of Tavernier, every single senior player that people used to aim that criticism at under Gerrard, Gio and Beale has left the club now.

[graeme_4 37,435]

I think player power is a huge thing these days, and has managers at all levels walking on egg shells (particularly the EPL). Look at cunts like Sancho and Rashford not giving a fuck 75% of the time. 

The biggest command of a dressing room we saw post Walter, was Gerrard coming in as he was massive compared with the players we had at the time. The manager has to be the biggest guy at the club. 

Gio, Beale, and now Clement have all had multiple players down tools. 

[RossS1873 2,593]

27 minutes ago, BlueSuedeSambas said:

Don’t think people can really talk about how many managers this dressing room has seen off now. With the exception of Tavernier, every single senior player that people used to aim that criticism at under Gerrard, Gio and Beale has left the club now.

That's probably part of the issue when the same thing keeps happening over and over. What's the 1 consistent thing? The captain. Probably a reason why he's getting a huge brunt of the slack. But I just think around Ibrox and Auchenhowie, there's no standards or a desire to improve them. Dare I say we perhaps miss a character like Jimmy Bell more than we believed and probably need more of them than we ever thought

[BlueSuedeSambas 56,359]

31 minutes ago, RossS1873 said:

That's probably part of the issue when the same thing keeps happening over and over. What's the 1 consistent thing? The captain. Probably a reason why he's getting a huge brunt of the slack. But I just think around Ibrox and Auchenhowie, there's no standards or a desire to improve them. Dare I say we perhaps miss a character like Jimmy Bell more than we believed and probably need more of them than we ever thought

People need to make their minds up when it comes to that though.

I have no doubts that there was a lot of player power when it was McGregor, Tav, Goldson, Jack, Lundstram and Arfield in there. It was reported at the time under Gio (Portugal pre season IIRC) but like I said, they have all gone now.

We keep hearing that Tav isn’t a leader, he can’t inspire, he doesn’t breed confidence, other players don’t look up to him etc etc and yet these same people think he’s got enough sway, enough of a voice and enough influence among a completely new group of players to have already turned the dressing room against Clement. 

When it comes to people talking about his influence, or sometimes his lack thereof, then which one is it, because it can’t be both?

[DrLaudrup 5,057]

6 minutes ago, graeme_4 said:

I think player power is a huge thing these days, and has managers at all levels walking on egg shells (particularly the EPL). Look at cunts like Sancho and Rashford not giving a fuck 75% of the time. 

The biggest command of a dressing room we saw post Walter, was Gerrard coming in as he was massive compared with the players we had at the time. The manager has to be the biggest guy at the club. 

Gio, Beale, and now Clement have all had multiple players down tools. 

I totally agree but that in part has been due to the culture that has been allowed in the club in recent years. A core of underachieving players who instead of being sold have been given increasingly ridiculous contracts putting them in strong positions. We talk about Clement but multiple managers have been guilty of not moving players on, and ultimately the board have shat it about enforcing transfer strategy. Gerrard had huge presence but refused to sell Morelos, Kamara, Kent etc when big offers came so is as guilty as anyone else for putting us in this predicament.

Perhaps recent managers have not had confidence in our scouting or youth systems to replace players quickly? Across the city they always seem to have players ready to come in and don’t hesitate to move people on for profit. I think Clement and Koppen have realised this and worked to move people on. The Albanian signing for example is the sort of player we should be bringing in (but time will tell). The reality is we are going to have to move back in the short term to move forward longer term. Clement will take flak for a problem that is only partially of his own making. 

[RossS1873 2,593]

1 minute ago, BlueSuedeSambas said:

People need to make their minds up when it comes to that though.

I have no doubts that there was a lot of player power when it was McGregor, Tav, Goldson, Jack, Lundstram and Arfield in there. It was reported at the time under Gio (Portugal pre season IIRC) but like I said, they have all gone now.

We keep hearing that Tav isn’t a leader, he can’t inspire, he doesn’t breed confidence, other players don’t look up to him etc etc and yet people think he’s still got enough sway, enough of a voice and enough influence among a completely new group of players to have already turned the dressing room against Clement. 

When it comes to people talking about his influence, or sometimes his lack thereof, then which one is it, because it can’t be both?

This is very true and you make a great point. Maybe it's a negative influence towards people. I don't know. It's clear he's very well liked amongst the squad. Everyone sang his praises. It's really a catch 22 where you see games like the last few OF where he's been a real bad hindrance and actively cost us goals, but the one in 22/23 where he scores the free kick, the header and nearly scores again to single-handedly drag us back into it. But I really think theres just far too much scar tissue and everytime we play them and lose, theres more scar tissue onto more players who just seem to think it's the norm. There's players in that squad who have been there now for too long who have seen us beat celtic once (the dead rubber) and it's just such a vicious cycle

[MayboleLoyal_atb 4,036]

1 hour ago, DrLaudrup said:

I totally agree but that in part has been due to the culture that has been allowed in the club in recent years. A core of underachieving players who instead of being sold have been given increasingly ridiculous contracts putting them in strong positions. We talk about Clement but multiple managers have been guilty of not moving players on, and ultimately the board have shat it about enforcing transfer strategy. Gerrard had huge presence but refused to sell Morelos, Kamara, Kent etc when big offers came so is as guilty as anyone else for putting us in this predicament.

Perhaps recent managers have not had confidence in our scouting or youth systems to replace players quickly? Across the city they always seem to have players ready to come in and don’t hesitate to move people on for profit. I think Clement and Koppen have realised this and worked to move people on. The Albanian signing for example is the sort of player we should be bringing in (but time will tell). The reality is we are going to have to move back in the short term to move forward longer term. Clement will take flak for a problem that is only partially of his own making. 

Clement is coming out after an old firm where we’ve been beat 3.0 talking about how many shots we’ve had. The players get a lot of stick for there mentality but if your managers coming away with shit like that then it’s going to filter through the team.

[rangersross 6,700]

1 hour ago, BlueSuedeSambas said:

People need to make their minds up when it comes to that though.

I have no doubts that there was a lot of player power when it was McGregor, Tav, Goldson, Jack, Lundstram and Arfield in there. It was reported at the time under Gio (Portugal pre season IIRC) but like I said, they have all gone now.

We keep hearing that Tav isn’t a leader, he can’t inspire, he doesn’t breed confidence, other players don’t look up to him etc etc and yet these same people think he’s got enough sway, enough of a voice and enough influence among a completely new group of players to have already turned the dressing room against Clement. 

When it comes to people talking about his influence, or sometimes his lack thereof, then which one is it, because it can’t be both?

Not necessarily. It's a lot easier to make a negative situation even worse with complaining, bitching, undermining, etc. When people already have doubts, they're often quick to go along with criticism, and it doesn't take a huge amount of social influence to twist the knife. It's a lot harder to drive positivity and determination. Especially when people are sceptical. You need real leadership to make that happen.

I'm not saying Tav's doing that, but when things aren't going great, people are generally more receptive to pessimistic "this will never work out" type thinking than someone trying to turn things around. That's why so many work cultures are toxic. 

[Laudrupsleftfoot 12,208]

I might be misremembering this but thought I’d read comments from Halliday saying something like everyone respects Tav and he’s essentially keeping things all together behind the scenes?

[Jimfanciesthedude 25,563]

2 hours ago, DrLaudrup said:

I totally agree but that in part has been due to the culture that has been allowed in the club in recent years. A core of underachieving players who instead of being sold have been given increasingly ridiculous contracts putting them in strong positions. We talk about Clement but multiple managers have been guilty of not moving players on, and ultimately the board have shat it about enforcing transfer strategy. Gerrard had huge presence but refused to sell Morelos, Kamara, Kent etc when big offers came so is as guilty as anyone else for putting us in this predicament.

Perhaps recent managers have not had confidence in our scouting or youth systems to replace players quickly? Across the city they always seem to have players ready to come in and don’t hesitate to move people on for profit. I think Clement and Koppen have realised this and worked to move people on. The Albanian signing for example is the sort of player we should be bringing in (but time will tell). The reality is we are going to have to move back in the short term to move forward longer term. Clement will take flak for a problem that is only partially of his own making. 

We've never been in a position to copy their model though, they can afford to blow money on projects knowing they have it to blow, and they had years of CL access

Even after 55, we were losing that much every season there was nothing left in the pot to have a conveyor belt of talent waiting to come in

Since we have made it back to the top league its been about one thing, stopping the ten, absolutely no thought in building something so that if/when we did stop it, we could then begin a period of dominance

[esquire8 45,103]

48 minutes ago, Laudrupsleftfoot said:

I might be misremembering this but thought I’d read comments from Halliday saying something like everyone respects Tav and he’s essentially keeping things all together behind the scenes?

May be the case but he's our biggest liability on the pitch and that's all that should matter. 

Keeping things together while scarred beyond belief mentally. Would sum things up.

[Jimfanciesthedude 25,563]

48 minutes ago, Laudrupsleftfoot said:

I might be misremembering this but thought I’d read comments from Halliday saying something like everyone respects Tav and he’s essentially keeping things all together behind the scenes?

That maybe so, maybe its because tav wasnt the one to dig them up if they were shite etc, hold others accountable for piss poor performances

He could very well be the type of boss that's everyone's pal in a dept and they all like that and respect that, but dont do a good enough job because they know they dont have to

Tbh i get the feeling theres no one in the dressing room who'd be the one to stand up and bollock someone for not tracking a runner, being lazy, half arsed, shite etc

Look at past successful Rangers captains, my first main memory of one is butcher onwards, they always gave off the vibe that they got on with the squad, but the players were also fearful of a bollocking if they were shite, so went the extra mile for their captain

And it fucking pains to say it given how limited he was, but brown at the tarriers looked like someone the players would run through brick walls for 

Since tav has been our captain (and to an extent goldson as our VC) you never got that impression, if anything it was when davis was fully fit and flying for us that title season that everyones game seemed to lift

[KBOO72 4,756]

1 hour ago, Laudrupsleftfoot said:

I might be misremembering this but thought I’d read comments from Halliday saying something like everyone respects Tav and he’s essentially keeping things all together behind the scenes?

Sounds about right. 

A group of shitebag losers looking up to the biggest shitebag loser of them all. 

[RossS1873 2,593]

1 hour ago, Laudrupsleftfoot said:

I might be misremembering this but thought I’d read comments from Halliday saying something like everyone respects Tav and he’s essentially keeping things all together behind the scenes?

Keeping things all together from what? Is the training ground about to go into civil war or something?

[theiconicman 3,121]

3 hours ago, BlueSuedeSambas said:

People need to make their minds up when it comes to that though.

I have no doubts that there was a lot of player power when it was McGregor, Tav, Goldson, Jack, Lundstram and Arfield in there. It was reported at the time under Gio (Portugal pre season IIRC) but like I said, they have all gone now.

We keep hearing that Tav isn’t a leader, he can’t inspire, he doesn’t breed confidence, other players don’t look up to him etc etc and yet these same people think he’s got enough sway, enough of a voice and enough influence among a completely new group of players to have already turned the dressing room against Clement. 

When it comes to people talking about his influence, or sometimes his lack thereof, then which one is it, because it can’t be both?

It does't have to be the senior team. His falling out with Hagi, Cantwell and it seems Danilo. I don't think he breeds confidence with the players such that they want to run through walls for him.

 

[graeme_4 37,435]

2 minutes ago, theiconicman said:

It does't have to be the senior team. His falling out with Hagi, Cantwell and it seems Danilo. I don't think he breeds confidence with the players such that they want to run through walls for him.

 

I don’t think there anything to suggest he’s fallen out with Danilo, and I suspect the Hagi stuff isn’t a decision from him alone. 

[esquire8 45,103]

15 minutes ago, theiconicman said:

It does't have to be the senior team. His falling out with Hagi, Cantwell and it seems Danilo. I don't think he breeds confidence with the players such that they want to run through walls for him.

 

He didn't fall out with any of them.

[J-Maestro 13,887]

4 hours ago, graeme_4 said:

I think player power is a huge thing these days, and has managers at all levels walking on egg shells (particularly the EPL). Look at cunts like Sancho and Rashford not giving a fuck 75% of the time. 

The biggest command of a dressing room we saw post Walter, was Gerrard coming in as he was massive compared with the players we had at the time. The manager has to be the biggest guy at the club. 

Gio, Beale, and now Clement have all had multiple players down tools. 

Can you really call Gerrard as someone who had a big command of the dressing room when Morelos continually walked all over him?

[graeme_4 37,435]

6 minutes ago, J-Maestro said:

Can you really call Gerrard as someone who had a big command of the dressing room when Morelos continually walked all over him?

In general, yes.

Let himself down with the handling of him though, 100%.

Could throw the same at Walter and Gazza, but you’d never say he didn’t command a dressing room. 

[KingKirk 26,449]

Clement has a night in edmiston house tomorrow  surprised its still going ahead tbh be interesting to hear what he has to say and what chapter of the story are we on. 

[crmpicco 145]

5 hours ago, BlueSuedeSambas said:

Don’t think people can really talk about how many managers this dressing room has seen off now. With the exception of Tavernier, every single senior player that people used to aim that criticism at under Gerrard, Gio and Beale has left the club now.

Yeah, that excuse has gone now. All of the Seville team are gone bar Tavernier

[J-Maestro 13,887]

32 minutes ago, graeme_4 said:

In general, yes.

Let himself down with the handling of him though, 100%.

Could throw the same at Walter and Gazza, but you’d never say he didn’t command a dressing room. 

Yet Gerrards sides collapsed after January every single season bar 55, was that the team no longer listening to him?