Where do we go from here?

[NixonRFC 1,575]

11 hours ago, Benidormbear said:

I think that's what fucks us every season. The players play out their skin in Europe and couldn't care less about the league. I'm also thinking that the managers and the board put a higher emphasis on Europe. Where has this got us? A high coefficient that has only benefitted one team and it isn't us as they concentrate on the league and we don't. They are crap in Europe because the league is more important. Our board, managers and players don't seem to know this and that has to change. It's only my opinion from what I have been seeing.

I don't think it's the fact our board don't seem to know this, I think it's mainly about finance, we lose money hand over fist every single year, the money on offer from Europe, even the Europa League is far more than we could ever dream of domestically, I don't think we could've built a team to get close to the tims without those European runs, totally agree that our hard work in Europe has benefited them more than anyone else, but I don't see a scenario where we would've won the League without the money Europe brought in, it's a catch 22.

[RossS1873 2,618]

Until the decision makers within the club actually start to make correct and intelligent choices then we're just continuously going to be in this cycle. Think about every 50/50 decision over the last few years, how many have the club gotten right compared to wrong

[King Jela 21,606]

Hate this overused, cliche in football, but we simply have to go through the process and see where it takes us. 

Either that or we sack Phil and just give it to Alex Rae until the end of the season. Somebody actually suggested that if we have a couple of bad results btw, that's no my fantastic idea. 

[Malkytfp1 19,625]

13 minutes ago, King Jela said:

Hate this overused, cliche in football, but we simply have to go through the process and see where it takes us. 

Either that or we sack Phil and just give it to Alex Rae until the end of the season. Somebody actually suggested that if we have a couple of bad results btw, that's no my fantastic idea. 

Drop more points on Sunday and I bet your outlook is different.

For me the writing is on the wall with Clement. We've seen nothing to suggest he has a working plan, a style or an idea of how to get a team working. The process just now is inevitably going to get us battered in every OF this season whilst struggling against the rest. There are changes needed all across the club starting at board level but I feel the changing of management too often is becoming an excuse and the only reason to keep a failing manager who has showed very little to be optimistic about.

[King Jela 21,606]

1 minute ago, Malkytfp1 said:

Drop more points on Sunday and I bet your outlook is different.

For me the writing is on the wall with Clement. We've seen nothing to suggest he has a working plan, a style or an idea of how to get a team working. The process just now is inevitably going to get us battered in every OF this season whilst struggling against the rest. There are changes needed all across the club starting at board level but I feel the changing of management too often is becoming an excuse and the only reason to keep a failing manager who has showed very little to be optimistic about.

It won't be. I can absolutely guarantee you of that. We will drop more points than them between now and next playing them. 

He came in last October and immediately got the team working, between October and March he took us from 7 behind to top of the league. He clearly has a style, he likes his teams to be direct. It's just not a style everybody is for. His working plan is to get players in that fit his 4-2-3-1. He only managed to get the last of his business done last week. No even had the chance to gel them together yet and folk are wanting him sacked before he even gets the chance to.

The process is attempting to rebuild the squad while going through a period of downsizing, we're in this position because of the board and it's a position and period we have to go through because of said board.

Can you explain how changing the manager to soon is just an excuse? We've lost 3 managers in a row at round about this exact time, 2 of whom we spent millions on before deciding the 2nd and 3rd month of the season was too much. It's done us literally no good and resulted in the shit pit we're in right now. 

[graeme_4 37,462]

45 minutes ago, King Jela said:

Hate this overused, cliche in football, but we simply have to go through the process and see where it takes us. 

Either that or we sack Phil and just give it to Alex Rae until the end of the season. Somebody actually suggested that if we have a couple of bad results btw, that's no my fantastic idea. 

Who’s the guy on here that hates Alex Rae again? Be worth it just to see the tears. 

[Ladytonbear 392]

5 minutes ago, graeme_4 said:

Who’s the guy on here that hates Alex Rae again? Be worth it just to see the tears. 

I know things are bad but surely to fuck no on thinks that giving Alex Rae the job, for however long, is a good idea?

[BLUEDIGNITY 34,075]

Every decision made by this board appears to be made in desperation so Christ knows where it ends up.🤷🏼‍♂️

[Malkytfp1 19,625]

11 minutes ago, King Jela said:

It won't be. I can absolutely guarantee you of that. We will drop more points than them between now and next playing them. 

He came in last October and immediately got the team working, between October and March he took us from 7 behind to top of the league. He clearly has a style, he likes his teams to be direct. It's just not a style everybody is for. His working plan is to get players in that fit his 4-2-3-1. He only managed to get the last of his business done last week. No even had the chance to gel them together yet and folk are wanting him sacked before he even gets the chance to.

The process is attempting to rebuild the squad while going through a period of downsizing, we're in this position because of the board and it's a position and period we have to go through because of said board.

Can you explain how changing the manager to soon is just an excuse? We've lost 3 managers in a row at round about this exact time, 2 of whom we spent millions on before deciding the 2nd and 3rd month of the season was too much. It's done us literally no good and resulted in the shit pit we're in right now. 

It's definitely an excuse used by some. If your plan is as you say to be direct then I'm not sure 1 up top is the way to go. Whatever his style is it's not working. You've said your points about why your positive about Clement. I'll say mines why I'm not.

9 wins in the last 22 games. No wins in any of the OF's.The collapse of last season under him. Absolutely baffling comments after losses like the last one. Constantly picking the same failing players. Absolutely no evident style or identity. Already this season, out of Europe first hurdle, dropped points to an absolutely pish hearts team who were far better than us, struggling against a depleted Motherwell and yet another battering against them. . An inability to change.

It's no a pop at you. If anything I wish I was more optimistic and he has been hung out to dry by the Shylock's at board level but I've no confidence in him. I think he's a pish manager in all honesty.

[KeyserSoze 15,262]

29 minutes ago, graeme_4 said:

Who’s the guy on here that hates Alex Rae again? Be worth it just to see the tears. 

[KeyserSoze 15,262]

1 hour ago, King Jela said:

Hate this overused, cliche in football, but we simply have to go through the process and see where it takes us. 

Either that or we sack Phil and just give it to Alex Rae until the end of the season. Somebody actually suggested that if we have a couple of bad results btw, that's no my fantastic idea. 

Why Alex Rae? What has he done in management to convince you he is the correct choice?  
 

he’s part of the problem. Oh but wait sorry, he’s a Scottish Rangers man. Ticked the boxes needed 

 

 

rolls eyes says for fux sake 

[Essandoh 21,839]

15 minutes ago, Malkytfp1 said:

It's definitely an excuse used by some. If your plan is as you say to be direct then I'm not sure 1 up top is the way to go. Whatever his style is it's not working. You've said your points about why your positive about Clement. I'll say mines why I'm not.

9 wins in the last 22 games. No wins in any of the OF's.The collapse of last season under him. Absolutely baffling comments after losses like the last one. Constantly picking the same failing players. Absolutely no evident style or identity. Already this season, out of Europe first hurdle, dropped points to an absolutely pish hearts team who were far better than us, struggling against a depleted Motherwell and yet another battering against them. . An inability to change.

It's no a pop at you. If anything I wish I was more optimistic and he has been hung out to dry by the Shylock's at board level but I've no confidence in him. I think he's a pish manager in all honesty.

As much as I’m extremely unhappy with the form and rut we’re in, as well as agreeing with you generally in your other points, I don’t think I’ll ever hold that collapse over Clement.

Tavernier, Barisic, Goldson, Lundstram, Cantwell, Wright, Jack, Davies, Roofe, Matondo were all present and that therein is where the problem lay.

In hindsight it was foolish of anyone to think we’d carry that through to the end when that core of players was present and we know how many times they crumbled.

[Essandoh 21,839]

3 minutes ago, KeyserSoze said:

Why Alex Rae? What has he done in management to convince you he is the correct choice?  
 

he’s part of the problem. Oh but wait sorry, he’s a Scottish Rangers man. Ticked the boxes needed 

 

 

rolls eyes says for fux sake 

He literally says in the same post it’s not his suggestion  

[King Jela 21,606]

33 minutes ago, Malkytfp1 said:

It's definitely an excuse used by some. If your plan is as you say to be direct then I'm not sure 1 up top is the way to go. Whatever his style is it's not working. You've said your points about why your positive about Clement. I'll say mines why I'm not.

9 wins in the last 22 games. No wins in any of the OF's.The collapse of last season under him. Absolutely baffling comments after losses like the last one. Constantly picking the same failing players. Absolutely no evident style or identity. Already this season, out of Europe first hurdle, dropped points to an absolutely pish hearts team who were far better than us, struggling against a depleted Motherwell and yet another battering against them. . An inability to change.

It's no a pop at you. If anything I wish I was more optimistic and he has been hung out to dry by the Shylock's at board level but I've no confidence in him. I think he's a pish manager in all honesty.

I still don't understand how it's an excuse? You haven't explained that part. 

9 wins in 22 is such a disingenuous stat without context. He came in, immediately hit the ground running and won 22 out of his first 26 before the squad, everybody decided wasn't good enough before Clement came in, had their annual collapse. Our 6th collapse in 8 seasons since coming back up. Tav and Goldson again being the biggest culprits. And due to that ill timed collapse we then had a terrible end to the season.

We then go into the summer with the view of a rebuild, but circumstances with the stadium and previous board failures means this'll be a rebuild attempt in the middle of a downsize period as well. We wouldn't have been able to shift all the losers out in 1 summer window (thanks again to the biard for this big contracts), so we have to lose some and keep some. And with any rebuild, no matter how big you spend (see Postecoglu) you're goni drop points (see Postecoglu again). We will drop more points than them between now and the next time we play them. They've also spent 30+ million this window, Clement or no Clement, they are winning the league. 

Our record against them is terrible and I will not defend him in any way with that. He deserves the criticism and shit for it. But I look at the example of Gerrard in this scenario. It's all hypothetical obviously, but had Gerrard came in during the 17/18 season when Clement came in his record would be exactly the same as Clement's is now. We'd have wanted him sacked the 2nd month into the season after another defeat and we most likely wouldn't have got the Gerrard team that battered the tarriers continously. 

I'm not even arguing for Clement per se, I'm arguing for stability. 

[King Jela 21,606]

16 minutes ago, KeyserSoze said:

Why Alex Rae? What has he done in management to convince you he is the correct choice?  
 

he’s part of the problem. Oh but wait sorry, he’s a Scottish Rangers man. Ticked the boxes needed 

 

 

rolls eyes says for fux sake 

Roll your eyes back far enough and see if you can spot a brain up there.

[KeyserSoze 15,262]

13 minutes ago, Essandoh said:

He literally says in the same post it’s not his suggestion  

He kinda did but tried not to 😂

[KeyserSoze 15,262]

1 minute ago, King Jela said:

Roll your eyes back far enough and see if you can spot a brain up there.

Just keep seeing a walnut tbh 🙄

[Malkytfp1 19,625]

24 minutes ago, Essandoh said:

As much as I’m extremely unhappy with the form and rut we’re in, as well as agreeing with you generally in your other points, I don’t think I’ll ever hold that collapse over Clement.

Tavernier, Barisic, Goldson, Lundstram, Cantwell, Wright, Jack, Davies, Roofe, Matondo were all present and that therein is where the problem lay.

In hindsight it was foolish of anyone to think we’d carry that through to the end when that core of players was present and we know how many times they crumbled.

Nah that's a fair point and similar to the one @King Jela made. However it also equally makes his decision to have James Tavernier as the captain this season baffling along with a long line of baffling decisions.

[Malkytfp1 19,625]

13 minutes ago, King Jela said:

I still don't understand how it's an excuse? You haven't explained that part. 

9 wins in 22 is such a disingenuous stat without context. He came in, immediately hit the ground running and won 22 out of his first 26 before the squad, everybody decided wasn't good enough before Clement came in, had their annual collapse. Our 6th collapse in 8 seasons since coming back up. Tav and Goldson again being the biggest culprits. And due to that ill timed collapse we then had a terrible end to the season.

We then go into the summer with the view of a rebuild, but circumstances with the stadium and previous board failures means this'll be a rebuild attempt in the middle of a downsize period as well. We wouldn't have been able to shift all the losers out in 1 summer window (thanks again to the biard for this big contracts), so we have to lose some and keep some. And with any rebuild, no matter how big you spend (see Postecoglu) you're goni drop points (see Postecoglu again). We will drop more points than them between now and the next time we play them. They've also spent 30+ million this window, Clement or no Clement, they are winning the league. 

Our record against them is terrible and I will not defend him in any way with that. He deserves the criticism and shit for it. But I look at the example of Gerrard in this scenario. It's all hypothetical obviously, but had Gerrard came in during the 17/18 season when Clement came in his record would be exactly the same as Clement's is now. We'd have wanted him sacked the 2nd month into the season after another defeat and we most likely wouldn't have got the Gerrard team that battered the tarriers continously. 

I'm not even arguing for Clement per se, I'm arguing for stability. 

Postecoglu did drop points at the beginning but even with the shite he had at his disposal you could see what he was trying to do with the inverted fullbacks and attacking shape. Clement has had almost a full season to implement something similar but we haven't seen it.

Ok so regarding the excuse, I feel some people are basically giving him carte blanch that no matter how poorly he does we won't change manager because we have changed too much recently. I think if you're keeping him for the reasons for example that you've stated (he needs time, it's a work in progress etc) then that's got a bit more sense to it than not changing a failing manager because "we can't keep changing".

[King Jela 21,606]

17 minutes ago, Malkytfp1 said:

Postecoglu did drop points at the beginning but even with the shite he had at his disposal you could see what he was trying to do with the inverted fullbacks and attacking shape. Clement has had almost a full season to implement something similar but we haven't seen it.

Ok so regarding the excuse, I feel some people are basically giving him carte blanch that no matter how poorly he does we won't change manager because we have changed too much recently. I think if you're keeping him for the reasons for example that you've stated (he needs time, it's a work in progress etc) then that's got a bit more sense to it than not changing a failing manager because "we can't keep changing".

I disagree, I think we saw it between October and March what the guy likes to see from his team. Structured, organised and direct. It wasnt the prettiest on the eyes, but it worked, until it didn't.  

It's also worth noting the night and day differences in resources between Postecoglu and Clement. Postecoglu's vision worked out because he was able to ship nearly every player from the failed 10 out and then spend 55-60m in 2 full seasons to implement his style of play. It worked because he had the backing of the board to make it work. That's the difference. Had it been at us he would've needed 2 summer windows and the January inbetween just to get us to where celtic were in his first season, for his 2nd season with us. All hypothetical, I know, but you get the idea. They were able to recover in one summer because they run the scum the right way and could afford to take that chance. We really don't have that opportunity and are spending the same now on a 'rebuild' that Gerrard spent away back in 2018! 

[Benidormbear 28]

14 hours ago, NixonRFC said:

I don't think it's the fact our board don't seem to know this, I think it's mainly about finance, we lose money hand over fist every single year, the money on offer from Europe, even the Europa League is far more than we could ever dream of domestically, I don't think we could've built a team to get close to the tims without those European runs, totally agree that our hard work in Europe has benefited them more than anyone else, but I don't see a scenario where we would've won the League without the money Europe brought in, it's a catch 22.

I agree with you as well. But, I think it has to be hammered into the players that the league is the most important thing as it gets you into the champions League. Players are attracted to teams that qualify for the top tournament, and for that you need to win the domestic league.

[16BlueSherbert90 19,653]

On 02/09/2024 at 08:40, SeparateEntityMyArse said:

Its difficult because i dont want to hurt the team more and never backed previous boycotts but something needs to happen.

I'm seriously contemplating not buying the EL package for me and my kid. I know if that was multiplied by many others then the reduced income would only hurt us more but I don't see many alternatives.

Clement will keep his job for reasons other than results, until the results turn so bad that removing him makes sense for the Board to try to shift focus from them.

I'd get behind some sort of collective fan movement against the Board but noone seems to want to lead on it, so we just moan online.

I'm fucked if I know what's best or how to achieve it. 

This here lies the issue...rarely anyone does know how to start something like this and those that did ended up wanting the infamy more or it was people who weren't well liked/trusted. 

The problem is the board. They are clueless and they are the main issue for the players and staff we are stuck with. 

[OrangeRab 3,382]

On 05/09/2024 at 19:35, Benidormbear said:

I think that's what fucks us every season. The players play out their skin in Europe and couldn't care less about the league. I'm also thinking that the managers and the board put a higher emphasis on Europe. Where has this got us? A high coefficient that has only benefitted one team and it isn't us as they concentrate on the league and we don't. They are crap in Europe because the league is more important. Our board, managers and players don't seem to know this and that has to change. It's only my opinion from what I have been seeing.

Agreed. There were a few posters at the time suggesting we should have concentrated on the league after January and basically just played the reserves against Benfica and rested key players in the earlier Scottish cup rounds.

Watched the first leg with one of the sports science guys down in Newcastle who sort of follows us. He called it, that with the press we were implementing with a tiny squad, the wheels would fall off trying to play in 4 competitions with no rotation. 

We had injury after injury. Tav, Lundstram, Goldson who were basically our best 3 players. Fell off an absolute cliff after that. Their legs were done.

Last season was so important. We never had the squad or talent to get to another Europa League final.

And all we did was fuck ourselves in the league that we’d done well to get back into.

Now we’re years behind again. When a title win could have changed everything.

Everything should have been done to win that title. It was poor from Clement, the board, the medical and sports science team.

 

[Jimfanciesthedude 25,571]

On 06/09/2024 at 11:41, Malkytfp1 said:

Postecoglu did drop points at the beginning but even with the shite he had at his disposal you could see what he was trying to do with the inverted fullbacks and attacking shape. Clement has had almost a full season to implement something similar but we haven't seen it.

Ok so regarding the excuse, I feel some people are basically giving him carte blanch that no matter how poorly he does we won't change manager because we have changed too much recently. I think if you're keeping him for the reasons for example that you've stated (he needs time, it's a work in progress etc) then that's got a bit more sense to it than not changing a failing manager because "we can't keep changing".

Postecoglu brought in nearly 30mill in player sales that summer, he also lost the first OF game when most of the team wasnt who he wanted

The 2nd OF game just after the winter break he was able to field 9 player he brought in, only taylor and mcgregor were from previous era

We're still running around with players not good enough 2 years ago

[B1872 21,920]

On 06/09/2024 at 09:49, King Jela said:

Hate this overused, cliche in football, but we simply have to go through the process and see where it takes us. 

Either that or we sack Phil and just give it to Alex Rae until the end of the season. Somebody actually suggested that if we have a couple of bad results btw, that's no my fantastic idea. 

Muscat will be available in December. I’d go and get him and give Alex Rae it until then. Let’s be honest Clement should be punted as we fall even further behind the scum in the next couple of months. It will never happen but the board need to take accountability for fucking up again, cut their losses and go and get the guy we should’ve got before we got Beale.